Summer of 2024: Synapses of Life with Shoma Chaudhury

 Andrea shares a deeply reflective conversation with renowned journalist Shoma Chaudhury. Originally recorded over a year ago for the Synapse conference, this episode offers an intimate look into Shoma's thought process and career journey. Shoma discusses her approach to holding nuanced, meaningful conversations with a wide variety of people, including some of the most famous figures globally. The episode delves into Shoma's personal experiences of navigating public scrutiny and professional hardships. Through the lens of her experiences, Shoma elaborates on themes of curiosity, compassion, forgiveness, and the complexity of human emotions and interactions. The conversation emphasizes the importance of creating spaces where people with opposing viewpoints can have honest dialogue and the valuable lessons that come from challenging life events. Both Shoma and Andrea explore the role of wonder, love, and respect in developing a more nuanced understanding of the world and ourselves.

00:00 Introduction and Context
01:04 Meet Shoma Chaudry
02:31 The Art of Holding Nuance
03:46 Evolving Perspectives in Journalism
06:44 Navigating Polarized Conversations
09:05 Personal Accountability and Growth
17:02 Respect and Understanding in Conflict
34:39 Spiritual Practices and Personal Resilience
50:48 Exploring Curiosity and Neuroscience
51:48 Influence of Parents and Nature
53:23 The Power of Genuine Curiosity
56:14 The Role of Wonder and Joy
57:49 Navigating a Public Scandal
01:02:21 Lessons from a Media Storm
01:06:41 Finding Peace and Resilience
01:14:42 The Importance of Love and Support
01:17:28 The Healing Power of Conversations
01:19:40 Final Reflections and Gratitude

Synapse Deck: https://tinyurl.com/5eaf2sdb

And a short video: https://tinyurl.com/3rcstp93

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Transcript

Andrea Hiott: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. This is a bonus episode with Shoma Chaudhury. We will introduce her at the beginning of the episode, so I won't do that here. But I will just say that this was for a Synapse conference that she puts on, we were talking for that, uh, last year. So this is an old conversation over a year old, but there's a new one coming up in December, I think it is. I'll put all the links in the show notes. So I thought now is a good time to pull it up from the archive and share it with you. 'cause it hasn't been shared publicly yet here. she's really interviewed some of the. Most famous people in the world, I guess you would say. And she's a A link sort of bridging all kinds of different people across the world. And these synapse conferences are very interesting. That's how I came to find her. I think it was through Nick Bostrom or Jerome Lanier or someone like that.

This is just a good conversation about life and how we can be complicated humans in a complicated world. So I just wanted to share it with you. The next episode is with Hanna de Jager, and [00:01:00] that's coming soon too. but for now, here is shoma.

Hello, Shoma. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for being with us today. 

Shoma: Thank you for having me, Andrea. It's wonderful to connect with you. 

I discovered you through something called Synapse, which we could talk about a bit, this really amazing conference, which everyone can actually watch.

It's even available, which I'll link to. and it was kind of technology and science. We could talk about it later, but And soon discovered you're a bit like the Barbara Walters meets, is it Christiane Amanpour? I never say her name right, but in India. So is that, is that fair to kind of compare you to that?

Because I came at it from, through this conference, but I'm still trying to figure out, you do so much. You started in many different places. So is it fair for me to bring up those names in a way? Well, actually, this, you know, I mean, at one level, it's presumptuous for me to say, 

Shoma Chaudhury: you know, of course, you can't say you're 

Andrea Hiott: Barbara Walters or Christina before I said it, but I guess let's just say you're doing political reporting conversation.

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah, let's say that their world of [00:02:00] concerns kind of intersects with mine. You know, Barbara, in the sense that I'm very interested in both sort of public framework questions, you know, questions of, Urgent public concern and also intimate landscapes, you know, of emotion and inner life and inner motivation.

So, and I've also been an investigative journalist. So, you know, in that sense, the, the concerns of Barbara Walters and Christian will. So, possibly coalesce, uh, in my own canvas of concerns, you know. 

Andrea Hiott: So the thing I connected with immediately starting to listening to some of your conversations was your ability to hold the space of either or. This research project is a lot about trying to understand how we think beyond dichotomy without necessarily rejecting opposites, or rejecting differences.

And in the way that you carry out your conversations. And by the way, for the audience, you've talked with, some of the most famous people in the world. but you hold the nuance. So I guess to [00:03:00] start, I want to figure out how you got into all this. And I wonder if there was a time in your life when you saw the world in a more contrasted way.

or if there was a moment when you started to think about nuance, 

Shoma Chaudhury: That's really interesting question. And one, thank you for sort of zeroing in on that because I think my capacity to hold adversarial, um, you know, viewpoints together and again, to find not a.

Not, you know, it's not necessarily always trying to make them go here, but to have a space where people feel understood and then disagreed with, you know, so today I hold that as something that I'm proud of, and that I think I've evolved to, uh, so, you know, thank you for noticing that. But yes, it's interesting.

You know, I think when I was younger. And when I first started out in journalism, I did have a much more adversarial approach, uh, to journalism, to public conversation, you know, it was very much about holding truth to [00:04:00] power in a, I would say, almost strident way, you know, and maybe that has its place in a certain time.

And I think it has great usefulness in society because it creates a kind of counterforce to many things. But, you know, even then I always believed in that those you criticize must always first feel understood, correctly represented, and then disagreed with, you know, so that's a principle I've always held.

But increasingly, you know, as the world has become more polarized, and you know, I myself have experienced life more, I think I'm increasingly interested in creating You know, I would say middle ground, not in a cop out kind of way. There's always a value framework that defines anybody's life. You know, we're all very political beings just by virtue of having a value system you live by.

So I won't say that I've abandoned my value system, but I've definitely become very interested in creating spaces where. People with really opposing [00:05:00] viewpoints can meet, um, have good faith discussions, concede what may be correct in each other's positions. And I've become really wary of being locked into any binaries, you know, and that actually, you know, and we can get into it a little bit more, but just at a philosophical level, I know that to be.

True of any of us, you know, that we all live in different registers, uh, you know, even those. And now again, coming to the kind of polarized world we live in, people we love, people very close to us in our own families, partners, friends have, you know, almost irreconcilable political positions and you still love them.

They still have wonderful sides. And to somehow make sense of all of that. It's become very important for me not to fall into the name calling, you know. And now some of this again has seeds in my earlier years as an investigative journalist, where it leads to my own newsrooms and even in the stories I wrote.

I always said that I did not [00:06:00] want adjectivizing, you know, and it's not enough to just operate from the righteousness of your own position, call people names and then cancel them, you know. So for me, journalism always was that. If you are going to disqualify someone, it should be with facts, you know, and you have to marshal facts in a way where, uh, you know, you obviously put a lens on somebody which makes them seem unpalatable, but it can't just be by saying, you know, you're fascist and you're this.

You have to marshal the facts to show that. So not hyperbole, not adjectivizing. Uh, those are things that I've, I've evolved, but yes, to come back to your original question, there was a more binary position about what's right and wrong. And now I'm much more, uh, interested in the complexity of human experience altogether, you know, 

Audio Only - All Participants: and 

Shoma Chaudhury: what is the point even about the binary holding, uh, people to power is that.

Those who sit in positions of power [00:07:00] are often, you know, they have to marry many contradictory positions and take the best possible decision in that. So, you know, it's, it's not really possible for those who really occupy complex positions of power to have decisions which are like, you know, binary white and You know, kind of, um, without complexity.

So increasingly I have an empathy for that, you know, that you, you question, you try to nudge people to particular value frameworks, but it's not this fire and brimstone, uh, almost punkish position of those who are outside the circle of power, uh, you know, just shitting on others without knowing what it takes to sit in those places.

Andrea Hiott: Yes. Gosh, but this is so difficult. And I know you've held power. I mean, you started your own magazine and you've. So you know what it's like to be in a position where you have to hold a million positions and make a million choices in the way you were just describing to, and also, this seems like kind of the problem of our times in a way of how to still [00:08:00] be, I've heard you use words like, fierce and vigilant, and those are very important words, for anyone, I mean, to, to be able to be comfortable with being powerful, and yet to direct it towards A place that's coming from the right intention and that's not about you.

I think this is really hard and it's, if we look at some of the things that do polarize, that's another word you used, that do polarize us, it ends up starting with something like, feeling fierce about something and feeling as if we can't hold the nuance because it would be questioning our sense of self, in a way.

Does that make sense to you? That we get this personal kind of confused with Maybe the larger objective or the action. How do you see that? 

Shoma Chaudhury: I see the world today as being so stifling in some ways, you know, because people get locked into their position. So you've uttered something when you were 14 or 15.

And I think for me, that comes from a very humanist position. And those, I think, go back to even my [00:09:00] childhood or the story of yourself that you saw. Yeah, we all 

Andrea Hiott: have this kind of story. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. And my, my point is that when, when you're not allowed to evolve, uh, you know, that fierce, uh, vigilance is fine. If it is undergirded with compassion, you know, and I think with that capacity to understand that life means evolving, you know, and I often see this, that Even Gandhiji, you know, the Mahatma, uh, would have been cancelled in his twenties, you know, because Yeah, maybe you can unpack that a little for people who don't know about that time of his life, who only know him.

Yes, you know, so when he first started out, he was quite casteist. And when he, when he was doing his early work in Africa, you know, he was speaking for Indians, but had a kind of, uh, you know, like he, he had what would today be called a racist position, on tax, uh, and that evolved, you know, and life It's taught him and it deepened his understanding and he was able to, you know, I mean, he wrote [00:10:00] my experiments with truth because he was constantly interrogating himself and shifting and learning and changing.

And, uh, that process is now often denied to all of us, you know, that you're so, and, and this is that tight rope of not giving people a sort of easy ticket where anything goes. But also not locking people into never changing, you know, and deny that then I feel you're denying the whole, the whole point of being alive, you know, and you're denying people's essential humanity.

And that's where I feel sometimes that, you know, I would be if I had to be defined, it would be as a left or center liberal, but I often now find myself uncomfortable, uh, you know, with liberal positions because it's so. Uh, sort of, um, you know, fierce in its righteousness that it again denies the heart of what I think being a liberal is, is to be able to evolve to be more gentle, [00:11:00] more compassionate while, you know, standing firmly with the value system, you know, so, um, yeah, so I agree that these are the kind of problematic things and that's why today I would look at my, um, you know, investigative journalism more in creating complex ground rather than in just purely adversarial ground, you know?

I think it's even more difficult and even more investigative to, um, find those middle positions and, uh, to acknowledge the complexity of things, you know? So. 

Andrea Hiott: Yes, because it's interesting. I think most people would agree with what we're saying, that life is nuanced when you're living it. But when we live it through our Social spaces these days, it doesn't feel like that, and we are almost like two different kind of, or many, many, we're all many different people, right?

Like, that's why it's so hard to define yourself by these terms, like, these political terms, because depending where you are in the world, and depending which position you're talking about, and which person you're talking about within that party, it means [00:12:00] something different. But as you were saying, we all have our story, so we all kind of filter it through our own lens, so we think we're all talking about the same position, and often we're not.

So, I guess the point is that All of this gets very confusing, and what it seems like is learning a practice, almost, of all of us understanding, in a way, that all of these positions are dynamic, and it's a practice of conversation, which I think you kind of demonstrate in your, in your work, is that Because you're actually still very fierce in your questioning, and you do, you're still, this word watchdog comes into my mind of, you know, I think you were kind of a watchdog politically when, with your journalism, you could tell us about that if you want, but I also, now you're talking to a lot of scientists, philosophers, people in technology, people who own, you know, companies that are kind of creating all of this technology, and I feel like you're still trying to hold them, you're still the watchdog, but you're doing it not to only provoke in the way that We seem to think is what we have to do to get attention now.

That's a hard balance too, isn't it? Does that? Yeah. [00:13:00] I wonder how you learned that too. That's a hard thing to learn that practice. 

Shoma Chaudhury: You know, again, first of all, I really want to thank you because I think you're picking on things that I value about myself. So it's wonderful to hear it articulated by somebody else.

But, um, you know, again, if I were to distill it, I think It stems from a position of genuine curiosity, you know? So I think when I'm questioning, it's never from a pres resettled position, like I genuinely want to understand how someone else thinks, you know? Mm-hmm . The other thing we, I think is fundamental to human beings is that everybody operates from a position of feeling that they want to do good.

You know, it is very rarely that someone will. Think of themselves as evil, quote unquote, or think of themselves as bad and in opposition of viciousness. You know? But we also want 

Andrea Hiott: to be liked and accepted and part of the community. And sometimes those fill the odds, I guess. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah, but I'm saying so when I [00:14:00] question or I seem to hold people's feet to fire, it's more out of genuine curiosity to say, How are you thinking about this?

Like, what's the worldview you come from, you know, where you could, for instance, you know, I think one of the conversations I had with Eric Daimler at Synapse, and he was Obama's advisor on AI, you know, and was literally talking about with relish. about labor compression that will happen out of the advent of artificial intelligence, you know, and now the older younger me would have said, you know, would have canceled him for that.

Whereas I wanted to understand what is this mindset and this mindset is driving the world. So it's not just enough for me to cancel that out. I want to understand. Where does that stem from? What is that motivation? What is the framework within which you operate or think? And then can I like just open some window into your mind, which reminds you that you're not just an entrepreneur, but you're also a [00:15:00] citizen and a parent and a lover and a friend, you know, that your decisions are going to have other ramifications.

So I somehow find that. Today, if you approach things with more gentleness and good faith, you probably have a greater chance of getting through or having that moment of connection with people, which helps shift their perspective, you know, rather than coming at it from a position of anger and outrage. So one is that the other is that I increasingly find that if you If I at least don't operate from this position of genuine open minded curiosity that I'm myself not able to articulate my own truths, and I find that very imprisoning that again, the world is so polarized today 

Audio Only - All Participants: that 

Shoma Chaudhury: my inner self can see that some of the people that I would normally have considered my You know, world view adversaries or political adversaries that they have some seeds of truth in what they are saying, you [00:16:00] know, and I want to have the intellectual freedom to be able to concede that and say, Hey, you know, facets of what you're saying are right.

They should give us pause, they should make us rethink, recalibrate, but here's the stuff that I don't agree with because it just doesn't fit with say, a universal value system which is of equity or justice or, you know, but increasingly we are so locked into positions where you, the moment you concede something about someone else, you're immediately considered like you've sold out, you've gone over, you know, and I don't, I find that intellectually uninteresting.

And that's why for me, it's much more intellectually agile now to be able to cross across borders rather than to just, you know, and I can give examples like, for instance, You know, in in our own context in the Indian context, I would be a very proud Hindu, but would be opposed to say the right wing political agenda of the Hindutva movement, you know, which is really deploying [00:17:00] religion for political consolidation.

So, but so even while all my positions would resist. You know, making say the minorities feel insecure or second class citizens, or, you know, use religion as political deployment, those value systems, I'm clear about, you know, but there are aspects of, say, cultural renaissance or default positions liberals had, where you kind of, you know, denigrated your own heritage, You know, you focus your modernity only on Western enlightenment.

Now, those are things which are actually making me intellectually sit back and say, Hey, maybe I had blind spots. And these were things or the fact that you had cut yourself off from, say, the emotional fabric of people who are maybe not, you know, like there's, there's a class of people quite de racinated, uh, you know, world citizens, not necessarily so culturally rooted.

[00:18:00] And you kind of would, were not connected with the emotional truths of others or cultural truths of others. And I find that now a very interesting cultural phenomenon, you know. So can I engage with those who I oppose and yet feel that they are also giving me a wake up call to recalibrate some of my own positions?

I think that's much more intellectually honest. and emotionally honest than, um, being so vain about your positions that you won't shift from them, you know, 

so in 

the American context, like I would be somebody who would be opposed to miss, you know, Mr. Trump's articulations. But in that I was once doing an interview with Fareed Zakaria, and I kept pressing him on saying, If he's not articulating some truths that people are feeling, then why would he say win over Spanish vote, or why would certain classes of people be voting for him, you know, even some immigrant communities, unless you have that intellectual [00:19:00] curiosity to tap into saying.

What is he tapping into that we are missing, you know? And I think that's very important, uh, to diffuse some of the sort of social political bombs going off all around us. 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah, that, there's so many things going through my head as you're talking. I'll just spout out some of them. But first is thinking, we often think of differences as like doors closing instead of portals opening, you know?

And the way you just explained it, and the way I've been trying to think about it is, part of this practice, right? Because it's a kind of a practice that, as I was saying, that we, we're trying to learn a different way of being together, I think, right now, because we've become so polarized. but if we see those differences as a portal, that sounds more like what you're saying, that, okay, this man is getting a lot of votes, and a lot of people really like him.

That's a portal for all of us who don't get that, and who reject that, and whose body feels. Turned off by that. That's legitimate, but like also there's something there that we're gonna learn if we look into that portal [00:20:00] How can we do that in a safe way, you know? Becomes kind of the question that's one thing that came to mind and another thing is you brought up this personal accountability, I think that's very important because When you're having all these conversations or when you're in the public life, you know, a lot of us, a lot of just humans, it's very hard because you feel like you have to take a stance and then the more you're seen, the more you're likely to be criticized.

That's just kind of part of it. So it becomes very hard to figure out how do you not defend yourself, you know, or, and then you start holding on to these things. So I think one does have to do some really personal work, it's almost like spiritual work to kind of understand your intention and when you're in conversation to be sure you're the watchdog of yourself, you know, that you're, at least I'm talking from personal experience, that if, if I'm coming from that place where maybe I'm going to be wrong, make wrong decisions, we're all human.

But if I, if I'm trying from the right place, then I can admit that I'm wrong and I can sleep at night. And like, do you know what I'm saying? There's some kind of a personal accountability too, to [00:21:00] this, this practice. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. I think one other complexity to that, you know, yes, there's a, there's a kind of lot of self vigilance that's required, you know, and that capacity for truth telling first of all to yourself, but just not easy either.

Right. Yeah. But I also think that there's a, tightrope to relativism, you know, so it's again, and I guess everyone arrives at their own place of what is that balance where you can't also arrive at a place where anything goes, right? So I don't want to take moral relativism to such a place where It's, you know, it's not that every, it's not that everything is okay.

Uh, there is something called accountability and there's, there is a value system, uh, which, you know, I think enough of human history has been lived to arrive at, as I said, issues of justice or for all, you know, I'm not talking equality in terms of. That everyone has to be equal, but equal opportunity [00:22:00] that those are goals that one is striving towards, I think those are not negotiable, you know, and you can't be morally relativist about that.

And I also don't like relativism where a lot of journalism leaves things as. He said, she said, he said, she said, you know, and that I don't think you can necessarily be neutral, but you can be fair, you know, and so these are things that I feel I've arrived at the new nuance of, which is that if I'm describing a conflict, like I said, I'd like to correctly describe how Israel sees its own situation and how Palestine sees its own situation, but I'm not going to Thank you.

cop out and say I'm neutral in that position. I'm going to marshal the facts to show why I take a certain stand, you know, on something like that, where there is a morality involved. My only thing is that I won't do it by hiding uncomfortable facts or facts that don't fit or that [00:23:00] make it a complex position.

I'd like to articulate its complexity. As I said, make my adversaries feel correctly represented and then disagree with them or point out why I think there's a value mismatch, you know? So that definitely is a practice that, but I think it's also empirical enough for everyone to follow, you know, it's not a subjective experience then.

So. 

Andrea Hiott: I think this is, so true and so difficult. It's like holding the paradox. I mean, I think about it all the time too, of how to be. You just said it in a very nice way that you're, or a good way, that you're not neutral but you're fair. Because no one's neutral, right? I mean, I think that's kind of the thing.

We're all coming, we, we develop, we come from a certain place, we've learned certain things, and there are truth. I mean, there are truths, we can hurt each other, and there are things, these, uh, moving parameters are moving, but only in, within certain other parameters, right?

So there, I think it's like a different way of thinking, right? Instead of thinking there's one good and there's one bad, and you either know it or you don't. It's more like we're all coming at it from [00:24:00] really different places. And yes, there are parameters that are shared that are, as you were saying, that are, that we have to fight for.

But within that, there's so much nuance. And the only way we're going to kind of get closer to hopefully changing things that, so that life is better for more in the ways that, that matter, it's going to probably be by trying to understand each other's different positions a little bit better. But also that's, exciting in a portal too.

And it doesn't, it's not about smashing everything together and making it the same either. So there's this, we're both trying to hold this paradox with the way we're even talking about it. That is kind of hard, I think. Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: But as I said, you know, I think that it's, um, The interesting thing about it is that there genuinely are steps that one can take, which are like an empirical playbook so that, like I said, it's not only a subjective thing, you know, I mean, I think if the intention is there, then everybody with whatever shades they're arriving at, but the process to it is, is an empirical [00:25:00] process, 

Andrea Hiott: And is that about research, or there's also this problem of where you look for the information you can find certain slant, so when you're going about that, how do you, if you're going to look at an issue of, that's very polarized, where do you, like you know, of course you, I can't, you can't give me like a absolute answer here, but how do you try to cover all that space, because it's too much space for any one person to really cover fully, but.

Yeah, 

Shoma Chaudhury: I think mostly like if it's any one particular issue, then I always try to read up. If there are two sides to that, then you know, I'm not going to only read things which give me a confirmation bias, my news sources, I do try to read from exactly the people that I feel opposed to. I like to read what they're saying, you know, because it's only if you understand, like I said, like we're all trapped in different narratives of our own making.

And 

if you understand somebody else's narrative, then let's assume you even want to fight it. You have to understand it to be able to [00:26:00] fight it. You know, if you're just fighting it with the blunt instruments of your own perspective, you know, you're not getting anywhere. So I find that, uh, I'm yeah. So one is that I actively from from both perspectives, even if I'm researching something like science, you know, I do, uh, look at say the arguments someone's making and then look at everyone who's critiquing that perspective as well.

So let's say, you know, right now, everyone has a free bed Everyone's making the world a better place, you know but you start and there are certain, like I said there are some inviolable value systems, you know, like How much energy are you using? Is it equitable? You know, if you are going to use water and energy to some, you know, insane level to create AI, then what is the distribution of that?

What is the concentration of power? What is the concentration of wealth? What is the concentration of information? You know, who wheels it? Now, those [00:27:00] aren't, uh, it's not that you have to be anti corporate, you know, again, just transparency in a way. One is transparency and also to know like what is like if they see they want to make the world a better place.

Let's acknowledge that you are talking about extreme concentration of power. 

And 

then talk to us about how you see extreme concentration of power as being a good thing. So once you articulate it, most people then can't hide from it, you know, and you can, I mean, for instance, I often say a lot of the big infrastructure, like say laying the internet.

You did need either governments or massive, uh, behemoth, corporate behemoths to do some of that, you know, you can't do that with just small players. So you can see some of the importance of being big, you know, but when you're using up huge amounts of resources for extreme concentration and you're not discussing how that can be distributed or how anyone can have a say on it, you know, those things, like I said, those, uh, [00:28:00] you know, the, it.

automatically becomes clear that there's an obfuscation here, you know, so I think it's important for people, like I said, in good faith, lead them to describe themselves. 

Andrea Hiott: And 

Shoma Chaudhury: some of the untenability of their positions will become clear to themselves, you know, like I can give an example, like again, recently with the most, I had a former Mossad chief, on a conversation about the Israeli bombing of Gaza, you know, and I know that this is and you can understand the wound from which it comes.

But you know, across the board, you can hear, you know, many is particularly from government or, you know, even a lot of news outfits, saying that the Hamas is sort of numbers on those wounded or dead in Gaza are not true, you know. So rather than like just being nasty about it, I did ask the massage chief, I said, do you accept those numbers?

And he said, no, they're not true. So I said, okay, you have great precision. You [00:29:00] know, you're the, the sort of best intelligence gatherers in the world. Um, if you deny those numbers, what's your own estimate of numbers? You know, what do you think has happened there? And he said, we don't really know. So then I just left it at saying, you don't know yourself, but you're denying what they're saying.

So, you know, where does the emphaticness come from and just, just saying that I think made it transparent that there's a, there's a narrative war going on here. It's not that you're talking facts, you know, it's not that you're like here, they're putting out, uh, you know, they're putting out an empirical number.

You're denying that, but this is what, you know, so just that, I think immediately diffused, uh, like you get what I mean? Like it made me feel. 

Andrea Hiott: It's just, it's the power of conversation when conversation. is done from this place we were talking about, I think, of curiosity or that, that you brought up of truly wanting to understand the situation, uh, truly [00:30:00] understanding that this is kind of the ultimate paradox, this, this one.

And for me, I mean, it can seem so overwhelming. I think it's a great illustration of, it's almost just hard to even bring up because you know, people are going to lock into certain positions. It's so emotional. It's so passionate. It has such a history in the way that, We were talking about where we are assume we're talking about the same things, but we're often completely assuming very different things in the same conversation.

So I guess that's kind of a, is a great example of how to, if you can hold the space of just trying to understand that. It's almost like I think of it as a different way or a different path in the world and you're, you're almost trying to kind of map it, right? You've got a completely different path, even though the terrain is shared.

And, and as we all know, you know, you can go up a mountain and from different sides and see completely different mountains. So I guess what I hear you saying is you're holding that space with the conversation of how to explore. A space you think, you [00:31:00] know, from a different direction or something, if that makes 

Shoma Chaudhury: sense.

As I said, while not entirely succumbing to relativism, you know, because I think that's also, you know, and sometimes you, you, you feel a bit uncomfortable, like, are you, uh, you know, in that quest to understand others? One shouldn't lose a value framework, you know, and that value framework, I feel like others may feel that, but I wouldn't, you know, I would not give up on a value framework, which, as I said, I think human history has fought enough for that, uh, equal opportunity, a sense of feeling safe, et cetera, is important.

But that's where, say for instance, some of this, um, You know, even even in the majoritarianism that's taken over the whole world. Uh, I think what's important is to kind of decipher and and you know, again, there are some places where the fight is [00:32:00] just necessary that it's a fight because there's also so much of brainwashing, you know, false facts, uh, propaganda, all of that.

So, you know, you can't really make space for a sort of accommodative space for all of that. So there is a time to be fierce, but I think again, there, when, when say you don't want a majority majoritarianism, uh, politics, but how do you fight that? While acknowledging that while being a majority community, there may be some emotions that need respect, you know, like if, if indeed you have, say the labor class in America, uh, feeling disenfranchised, you know, it's not enough to, uh, it's not enough to just delegitimize that emotion or, you know, like, how do you engage with it?

How do you give it respect? I, I think respect is a very, very important word, you know, and at least in my experience with whatever. Conflict situations, one is either written about or been engaged [00:33:00] in. I think respect is a very, very powerful force. You know, that if you respect people's positions and then disagree, even very, very fiercely with it, um, that's something people can engage with.

You know, it's when all the name calling begins and you're like literally dropping everyone into baskets of poison. Then there's a, there's a huge contrapuntal force back, you know, because nobody likes to be described. As an asshole, you know, so if you kind of respect people's emotions, uh, say, you know, they're feeling their jobs are being taken over or that, uh, there's a hypocrisy going on about, say, you know, let's take the veil debate in France, you know, where, uh, say, people feel that they have fought long and hard for, let's say, equality to be expressed in a certain way or modernity to be expressed in a certain way, you know, where the hijab should not be allowed.

Now, how do you still respect someone's position and yet argue, [00:34:00] you know, so don't just call them jihadists, but, uh, respect that there's a certain cultural thinking there, and then argue that out and, and then put out your value system for why it's not negotiable. You know what I mean? So that risk, but the moment you call someone a jihadist, there's going to be a, there's an anger outflow back.

Whereas if you say, yeah, okay, I, I understand that you feel this. And that's, it comes back to that, like respectfully represent someone's. You know, position, and then engage with it, uh, or dismantle it, you get what I mean? At least in your articulation, that's, that's, that's something that one can really do, you know, so, that respect.

Do you have some kind of a 

Andrea Hiott: spiritual practice or some kind of, because, or here's another way to ask a question, like, have you ever been in a situation, I imagine you have because you're around so many powerful people, where they just, the power is just kind of the inertia, and it's almost like a bullied atmosphere, to where I mean, I think people often find themselves in these [00:35:00] situations where it feels Um, and it's, it's hard to do what you're saying we need to do even to have the space to kind of catch yourself and, and do it.

Do you know what I mean? Have you ever felt that? And if so, how have you managed to kind of learn how to deal with this?

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even in my own personal life, there's, uh, you know, professional life there has been, uh, you know, very difficult circumstances. Where I have tried really hard to, you know, okay. So I just, before I sort of get into any specifics, I think, yes, it is hard to do. Uh, there are times when you feel that inertia or you, or you want to pick your fights, you know, you, you can't be sort of fighting every battle.

Like I said, But the other is that I think what I learned from a [00:36:00] lot of the tumult in my own life was to not describe situations or people as in the essence, you know, but to describe your experience of it, because you can leave experiences behind, you know, so let me explain this, like, for instance, suppose I don't like some of your actions.

I know that when people describe me as, you know, they're again like kind of labeling you or describing the essence of you in some way, which does not feel true to yourself. There's a lot of frustration or anger or like a pushback on that trapped and, you know, whereas if somebody says some. Things that you have done because actions are external to your being, you know, actions can be changed, actions can reverse, actions can be left behind experience.

So it's not that you're like essentializing people. So that's, again, something I've learned through the tumult of my own life. Whether it's with my loved ones, whether it's with my children, [00:37:00] whether it's with professional people, anybody, I try and restrict a discussion about actions rather than essences, you know, because I wouldn't presume to know the essence of something.

anyone else. I can presume to discuss a set of actions, a set of attitudes or behaviors, you know, so that's another kind of tool I've learned. But vis a vis taking on things such a very powerful, I think we all operate in our own, uh, you know, there's always a landscape of action and some may have larger canvases, some will have smaller canvases, but the set of challenges in a any canvas of action of being a human being.

These things present themselves, you know, it could be in relation to your partner in relation with your children in relation with a teacher, anything, you know, and then telescope out to being presidents and prime ministers, you know, but I think the the things we are discussing can change in scale, but the heart of it is still the [00:38:00] same, you know, and there again, they're like, if there's a insoluble situation, you have many things opportunities, you know, you either walk away and you leave.

Um, there are times when war and violence is necessary, you know, because you're really defending something which is inviolable. So again, we come back to that thing you had said, what's the intention, you know, and it does require, I mean, when you say spiritual, yes, I've arrived at a spiritual practice, but I think this is all, it begins with a conversation with yourself, you know, what are you seeking from life, you know, from your own temperament.

Are you somebody who walks away? Are you someone who fights? What are the fights? And each, I mean, again, you can't presume to say that for anyone else, 

Andrea Hiott: but that's another paradox that spiritual science, I mean, it's almost that too is very nuanced, I guess, you know, I mean, all of this that we're talking about could be thought of as spiritual in a way [00:39:00] in, in terms of.

Trying to kind of be in the right vibration or place, you know, as you're conversing, I mean, um, but again, people hear those words, science and spiritual on it, it locks you into whatever your path is with those words, I guess. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah, you know, I mean, the spiritual again, because meanings have accrued around words, it'll always depend on which cultural position people are in when they hear the word spiritual.

Personally, for me, exactly as you're saying, you know, a lot of this constant clarifying of self is a spiritual practice. I've also been in very toxic situations where increasingly, I find myself able to absorb toxin, because I, I don't take things very personally, you know, and that's actually come from very, and it's it's been earned through fire.

It's not something that I was born with, but I think arrived at a place of [00:40:00] genuine self confidence and peace, you know. So I've been a lot of very like roller coaster, volatile situations. And in that, I think the the kernel of what I've come to, which is my own cell of strength, is to know whether you're at peace.

with yourself? Like, are you looking your own? Are you looking yourself in the eye? You know, living by the story of yourself, you know, it's not about what stories others have constructed about you. But are you good with the story of yourself, you know, so for me, was my sort of monastic cause. And increasingly, I've been able to arrive.

You know, to greater measure or not, sometimes it may slip, but that's my constant vigilance. I genuinely don't take things too personally, you know, so even if a very toxic conversations going on, uh, with, you know, people, again, like I said, work, love 

Audio Only - All Participants: in 

Shoma Chaudhury: any context, I, I am able to create that separation. And, uh, [00:41:00] that not bristling about something, uh, actually diffuses things a lot, you know, and you're able to say, okay, like really like, and I don't mean this in some sanctimonious way, you know, it's not sanctimonious.

It's just like curious, like really, like you experienced me like that. And so again, that, Sometimes you say, Oh, wow. Like someone experiences you like that, then is there scope for change? If you think it's unfair, drop it. If you think there's some kernel of truth, I'm, I'm quite interested in thinking of myself as clay, you know, and like being a storyteller, you, you, you kind of, I don't think of myself as fixed, you know, I think that's.

That's freed me up a lot. 

Andrea Hiott: I think that's actually, yeah, that's really getting at something key that there's a lot of different narratives. Again, we don't want to fall into relativism because there's not an infinite amount of anything goes narratives, but there's a lot, always a lot of different ways you can get to the same place or a lot of different [00:42:00] ways you could tell the story of a life and we're different people in different contexts.

You know, that doesn't mean that we're not the same person or that we're not all sharing the same world. So, yeah, but as you, as you're talking, I'm thinking of. That's also a practice that I guess is just life, and it's lived, when it's lived in the way that might be the most exciting and the most, like, I mean, if you think back 10 or 20 years from where you were and where you are now, and you've gone through a lot, that feels like it's worth living if you can get to that place where you can understand yourself as, um, many different people, but, and you can look at yourself, as possibly fitting into these narratives and decide if, if not.

But I, I just want to say this is like a really hard process, I think, for, for a lot of us. And often it does take going through painful things. I mean, you know, someone says something negative about you, for example, or, uh, and then you, it's hard not to react against that and fight them or hate them. And [00:43:00] then some people devote their whole lives to then, like, hating those people who said that bad thing.

So, This is really important stuff we're talking about and it's hard. I don't know if you want to share anything from your personal, life it's just, this, I feel like, is the real crux of life and it's, what everyone is trying to figure out how to do, how to be okay with who they are and still grow and, communicate.

That's a lot, but whatever comes to mind. Sure. No, I 

Shoma Chaudhury: mean, yeah, in my personal, some of it was, you know, there was a kind of public disaster that hit my life. So I can speak about that because it was all over the net. But you know, I think, I think when I was listening to, again, just like a core concept that's really helping, like I said, I mean, I've really had to walk through fire to arrive at some of these places of like, you know, equilibrium and.

mustaches, you know, keeps me steady. And yeah. And my thing is that life, I think a lot of this also came from the journalism. So two things I'd like to chat about one was [00:44:00] I've really had to struggle with understanding when you go through very painful experiences or relationships or, you know, circumstances that how do you, um, how do you forgive, but not forget, you know?

And I think that's a clarity I've really come to, that I have genuinely been able to forgive. You know, my past people that impacted it negatively, even myself, like I've been able to forgive even who I was for participating in some of those, uh, you know, very painful situations. Yeah. That's important to you.

Yeah. But then how do you not forget it? You know, so you don't want to be some wimp where you, you know, like you're all just flowing. 

Andrea Hiott: No. 

Shoma Chaudhury: It's very important to be able to forgive that because, you know, you want to move on like. And that I think is a truly spiritual practice. Life is really transient and it's moving and you don't want to be stuck.

It's one life like, or whatever, you know, you may spiritually believe in many lives, but still your experience right now is one life. So how do you [00:45:00] not stay stuck? So for me, um, forgiving, but not forgetting. And that really took me a long while to understand. So when I say forgetting, is that To learn from your past, and you would not let a certain set of circumstances happen again, you would not let people treat you a certain way again, you won't let, you know, yourself behave in some ways again.

So that's about learning, but then you forgive it, you know, and that witness of being to know that, you know, you're evolving, you don't have to be stuck with the shoma of the past. 

Andrea Hiott: No, but there's still this accountability 

Shoma Chaudhury: is a lot of ease, you know, so 

Andrea Hiott: yeah, that speaks to what you've been saying to about Not falling into relativism because it's not that you just flow and everything is all fine or whatever.

It's no it wasn't fine But you forgive it you forgive them you forgive yourself you see it clearly But then you you know, you're in a different place than you're you're not it's not just everything is fine and flowing it's that there is a [00:46:00] some kind of change that is That has been made me when you were talking I was thinking about when you get your heart broken right or and how it can just you just want to shut down or something or like not open up again or you start maybe you think you did something wrong and it kind of that's where you learn how to hold that paradox of okay like that didn't work and you kind of have to separate your own self you it's not a judgment of you right it's not taking it personally in that way and there's many scales of that I guess in all of our in all of our lives.

Shoma Chaudhury: Yes, absolutely. And you know, and all this now sounds I always say I love meeting people mid journey. You know, usually you speak to people when they are very successful. And I, you know, I often tell people that I'd love to meet people mid journey through their tumult and their confusion because Like I said, this can sound really sanctimonious, you know, like, Oh, you got it all taped up.

But, you know, I just want to keep repeating. It's been a process of fire, you know, it doesn't, well, why don't you share some of [00:47:00] that? Yeah. I mean, I do. I will. I just wanted to say, there was just something which came to me. Yes. You know, we were talking about relativism and I think the other thing that has freed me up a lot in life and where I do, I hope fingers crossed continue to have a kind of lightness of being comes out of.

Really understanding that hey, life doesn't owe you anything, you know, so and that again comes from that capacity to look around you and certainly there my journalism has helped, you know, so I have a self pitying approach to life. at all, you know, because I really believe in endeavor. I genuinely believe that I'm, I'm a real, like, I genuinely work a lot.

And like anything that comes, it's from the fruit of that labor. But for me, also, the process genuinely is joyful, you know, so again, it's like, what choices you make, I'd rather be poor than not. Uh, then do do certain things. So with my work, it has to be a place of joy, you know, so that's helped. [00:48:00] But with the journalism, you know, I've seen really, really good people suffer, you know, uh, with sort of political sort of persecutions, you know, the finest people with the finest motivations, leading the toughest lives, uh, you know, then sort of painted black, wrongly framed, wrongly represented, pilloried by the media, spending years in jail, or every now and then you'll hear of people, you know, just in the bloom of life, you know, accident or disease or loss, grief.

Think of Gaza or think of Syria or think of Israel. I mean, just think of, The way people are, you know, so I'm not against saying, uh, my sister and I used to have this joke between us, you know, whenever we'd kind of feel really sorry for ourselves, we'd say, okay, but think of someone with an amputated limb, you know, and that as a metaphor just tells you that life doesn't owe you shit, you know, so that [00:49:00] perspective helps, uh, you don't operate from that.

position of vehemence so much, while of course endeavoring at every instance to better your life, to expand your life, to improve your life, to do whatever it takes, you know. But like not, I think the key, and I guess that's when you said spiritually, is like Not to take it all so, so personally, you know, life is personal ultimately, actually.

Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: And you're not just one static stuck person either. I mean, that's the thing too, taking something personally means you're, you're comparing to something that's static, right? But you're, you're moving and you can learn and you can change. And I think that's, that's part of like the don't. Take it personally too and also to your point about thinking of people who are in what seem like less fortunate situations It's also that's also a weird nested thing because as we were saying a lot of times when you go through difficult things It opens you up.

It opens you to another kind of consciousness, right you It's not that we all want to court [00:50:00] Negative things in our life or like have any kind of sickness, but when you go through something, that's really hard You have to expand your consciousness. I think of like double consciousness with W. E. B. Du Bois You have to develop an expanded consciousness and it can actually lead to a richer or a different life Which doesn't mean it was right that it happened and it shouldn't happen And part of that consciousness is towards changing it.

But all of this gets very complex too, right? It's not And that's part of what, I guess, conversation in journalism is, is doing too. Because I was going to ask you, how did you, two things, like how you hold all these different knowledges when you're talking to so many different people.

It's a lot of space, right, to go from talking to the most famous kind of journalist to the president of this company to, you know, a famous actor and it's a lot to hold, a lot of worlds. and also kind of how you. found a way to enter all those different positions? Because I think a lot of this practice that we're talking about is understanding that there are so many different positions, even though it's a shared, non relative space.

So, is it just been the journalism [00:51:00] too that's kind of taught you that, or? personal relationships. I know your dad was a neurosurgeon too. So I, there's a lot of philosophy in neuroscience that comes out through your stuff too. So I don't know, maybe you can help me thread those, how you've understood all those different ways of being an embodied being in the world.

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. That's a tough question. If I had to come down to just like one explanation for that, it would be genuine and I mean this genuinely, you know, it's like not even a, it's not a stance.

Genuinely, I'm moved by curiosity, you know, I like if I'm talking to somebody, I'm, you know, there's no construct to it. Did you, did you 

Andrea Hiott: read a lot of books when you were a kid or did 

Shoma Chaudhury: you watch a 

Andrea Hiott: lot of movies? I mean, because I always find people who watch a lot of movies or read a lot of books, they, they also can develop this way.

Shoma Chaudhury: So my father, you know, you brought up, so not so much about the neuroscience, but he was in both my parents actually were doctors and they both had an amazing zest for life and for [00:52:00] nature and, some like pretty simple in that sense, not worldly, but I would say, I mean, if they were sort of shaping influences in my life, like nature would be a big part of it.

 I mean, yeah, nature really, like I'm never more, you know, even on Instagram, like, my team always laughs, I never put out anything. And the one time they said, can you please personalize your Instagram? I put out a picture of a squirrel, you know, or a tree.

Like, okay, take this down. This is not getting you. Oh, I understand. I'm also not doing a personal. Somewhere once, and they said, can you give us a picture, which is not your public self? And it was me in a like jungle pool, you know, so really my nature, but so my parents, yeah, my father, not so much the neuroscience, but he had this kind of, I would say.

You know, like very much, there's a Vedantic thought, you know, talking about spiritual, uh, is like, how do you act while being disengaged? You know, so like, [00:53:00] sums up quite a bit of what we were just talking about. Yes. It's a hundred percent involvement in the endeavor, 

Audio Only - All Participants: uh, 

Shoma Chaudhury: not in the outcome, you know, and it's that, like, how do you live in that disengage self while being like, I'm like a 9, 000 percent passionate worker, you know, But I'm still kind of a bit disengaged, uh, internally from it.

And those, like I said, I mean, yes, it has come, um, I would really say curiosity, you know, stories, reading films, and meeting people. Like if you're a true curious student of just human living and being. You know, you actually see that amazing like explosion of stories around you all the time in people's lives and, you know, and it could be famous people.

It could be ordinary people. There's always a story going on beneath, you know, and I think like by consuming that [00:54:00] with genuine, like I said, not a construct of curiosity, but genuine curiosity. Like now this is a cliche, but it makes you a student of life, you know, so I think that helps me hold a lot of stuff in my head.

And the other thing I have, I mean, that's just being blessed with a very photographic memory. People do say like, how do you like not look at notes, not look at it. Yeah. I 

Andrea Hiott: noticed none of you never have notes in your talks or I've seen. 

Shoma Chaudhury: But for me, that comes from, it comes back to that great desire to understand something.

So when you actually understand something, Then, uh, it's made sense, you know, so it stays in your head. 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah, it's a narrative, 

Shoma Chaudhury: so you're, it's all 

Andrea Hiott: leading to the next thing, yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah, so I don't hang on to facts like just without the string, you know, but because it's locked into, like, I've understood it, so then it makes sense.

And then you remember it, you know, so I don't know if that, and I'm wondering if your audience is going to like, kind of get lost with this conversation because it's kind of in the air, but [00:55:00] 

Andrea Hiott: no, that's what they like. So the more like that, the better. no, but. I, I do want to, as you were talking, I was thinking, not, not just then, but throughout the whole thing, this kind of sense of, of, of presence and of, um, of getting out of, of self in a way.

So not taking yourself seriously, but also, also realizing there's this incredible world going on, right? And that there's a kind of presence which That curiosity speaks to, right, if you, if you can turn, if you can be present to the people in front of you and their stories or the world around you and just everything that's happening, it, there's a connection there, isn't there, between not taking yourself seriously and that, that, that space of, of curiosity and awe or, or, or kind of what you were saying where you're disengaged but you're, but you're not, but you're active.

Shoma Chaudhury: Is that, yeah. Yeah. You're very involved with life with without being imp sort of constantly [00:56:00] implicated and it at every moment, you know? Yeah. Curiosity. And I, I was gonna, again, it's a very esoteric word, but for me, if I kind of think of some tools for living or again, and those I think are patterns. I, I think I had seeds of it myself, but you know, when you're talking about the power of the story, because I've had the privilege and blessing actually to meet like such a massive canvas of interesting people, you notice some common ingredients, you know, to a very richly lived life.

And for me, wonder is another, you know, you just use the word awe. So curiosity would be one. And I think like this. I possess it because I love nature, but like there's also like childlike, uh, wonder and joy, you know, and again, joy as I've grown older, I've begun to understand just how powerful these words are, you know, like what does joy mean?

Like to really have that sense of wonder about people's journeys, [00:57:00] about nature, about. You know, just sunlight on leaf or just like a little bird, you know, those things. Yeah. I mean, without like wanting to get into a cliche, if you really arrive at the meaning of that, it makes you quite this, like I said, that, that light traveler through life, you know, because, uh, one, as I said earlier, Life doesn't owe you.

So that eases you up, you know, because it's not particular, you know, like no one's getting at you because your life's so screwed up. It's just the way it is. And you can look at anybody's life, you know, and you'll find that under layer of pain and grief and struggle in everybody's life. So it's not that personal.

And then the other is that joy is always available, you know. So I think you were asking me to personalize some of this. So there has been, I was telling you, I think the peak of my career when I, you know, um, in conventional terms, I was on top of the world. I [00:58:00] was managing editor at the Helga and you earlier said about founding a magazine, but I co founded it, The real founder was Tarun Tejpal, you know, and he's a journalist.

He was a close friend, a journalist, looked up to him. But he was accused of sexual harassment, which then later was represented as rape. And I was the managing editor then. So there was a big, huge, like a, you know, Scandal that erupted. 

Audio Only - All Participants: Yeah. And 

Shoma Chaudhury: by virtue of being many things, you know, just circumstance, it was like one of those first viral stories, you know?

Uh, I think after Monica Lewinski, this was like the next global viral story that, 

Andrea Hiott: okay, so this was over 10 years ago or so? Yes, yes. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Uh, 2013 

Andrea Hiott: before all the. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Me too. And yeah, like that first big explosion of me too. And, you know, again, not to get and again, everyone's experience of it would be different. And when I say that it's not to say relativism is genuinely to understand [00:59:00] what every so I can only speak from my experience of it.

But I know that You know, for all the professional hard work I'd put in and I was, as I said, on top of at least my canvas of the world and respected, had a body of work, et cetera. Suddenly I became a piece of fiction, you know, like anybody could say anything about me because I happened to be the managing editor.

I think I intervened with alacrity again with empiricism. And, you know, I keep saying I don't want anyone to take my subjective truth on this. There are. actions, you know, that you base a story on. So I say with empirical fact that as a leader of an outfit, we took immediate, urgent, transparent, collaborative action, but still, you know, the accuser later, and you know, what she was saying to me personally, was I'll, I'm so moved by the way you've responded to this, and it's helped me heal.

And there were complex truths there, so it comes back to the complexity. Yeah, yeah, so much [01:00:00] nuance, but media doesn't 

Andrea Hiott: often represent it that way, especially not 15 or 10, whatever, back, back years back. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah, it was literally, like I said, that first acetylene, uh, you know, story. And, and I did take a, and it was very difficult to do because in a, in a public millstone like that, uh, I was, you know, I said the institution.

Has taken immediate, transparent, collaborative action, uh, which coheres with her and which prioritizes her emotions and feelings. But if there is a criminal case where someone's liberty is at stake, then, uh, you know, one doesn't have the tools to investigate the truth of this. And my truth was that as the leader of the organization, I was given two competing Versions of what had happened, you know, so I will I took that position of saying publicly that as long as it was an institutional response, even the Supreme Court, you know, there's been allegations of sexual harassment [01:01:00] in the Supreme Court, even they did not take action with the alacrity and transparency that we do, you know, but that's an institutional response.

Now, if there's a criminal response, I cannot presume to be the arbiter Thank you. of deciding whether there's a criminal action that's taken place. I don't have the tools to investigate it, you know. And as the first responder, or what I thought I was the first responder, I was given two differing versions of what happened.

And there were some empirical things which played out both of those, you know. So in the public space, I could have really taken the easy, uh, you know, uh, sort of popular position. And, you know, uh, completely sort of, um, crucified the, the man in, in, uh, you know, uh, in contempt. But what I said was that here's what the institution has done.

We have prioritized the woman's feelings. I have, and all of that is on record. You don't have to take it [01:02:00] subjectively. But, uh, now that it's a criminal case, it's for the police to find out. And there were two versions of the truth or two versions of the incident and that has to be investigated, you know, I was absolutely burned alive for saying there were two versions, you know, and that was a lesson to take, you know, because, uh, 

Andrea Hiott: Gosh, that speaks right to this difficulty of the either or in the paradox and the way we see the world through.

You know, just, just to say that two people had two different stories sounds like you're saying there were two truths, which isn't the same thing. Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. And to say that this needs its own investigation, you know, but because people wanted me to take the easy binary position on that, but they. Is again like I can give you many other stories, but that because it's a public one where that really helped me clarify for myself, like who I am, what I am, do I regret that position?

And I don't, you know, [01:03:00] because as a woman, as a leader, as a journalist, You know, as an individual, if all of that super painful meal storm and catastrophe had to happen again, when I was in that position, I would say the same thing again, because that was the truth, you know, that was the in terms and then eventually the person was exonerated the man.

And I'm sure there's still layers of shades of both. were telling their own experience and their own truth about that. But that's what I'm trying to say, that there's a criminal legal position, and then there's the experiential, emotional, social, psychological position. And all of that, for me, though I was burnt alive for that.

I would do it again because that's, and I can't lose that adherence to the truth, you know, so I lost a lot in that. I lost public position. I lost, I would say 20, 25 years of my work. When you resigned, right? Absolutely. Yes. I resigned, [01:04:00] you know, for a long while you lost your reputation. I felt I lost my voice because that's when the whole me too.

It must've 

Andrea Hiott: been so hard because I guess I should stop for a minute because I don't know all of this either. I mean, if people Google you, they'll see. Like, that you're super famous in a lot of ways, I mean, Google you from the U. S. or from, from, you know, Europe. And then also that, that something happened, like what, what you just described, so I'm really glad you just described it because it doesn't really say what happened and people could also take it whatever way they want, but it sounds like someone accused someone that was your, you know, your boss or whatever that you knew very well of.

Doing something and you held both stories you listened to the person you told them you didn't say it wasn't true what she said and you held this this space, but then you were accused you you were exonerated or you were Criticized very heavily in the media, which I don't know, but I I'm sure you lived through it But you don't see [01:05:00] it so much on the internet.

I didn't search but it sounds like you went through one of those Really difficult situations and you're still able to say that you did hold the space the right way Which is kind of amazing actually.

Yeah, because I wasn't denying 

Shoma Chaudhury: her truth at all. Yeah, that's that's the thing that matters Yeah, and and it was just that how do you but I can't, uh, I could not lie and say that. And I kept saying that, you know, this is the journalism, like everyone kept saying, Oh, you're such a respected journalist. And, you know, and I said, but you respected my journalism because I could tell difficult or open the space.

Right. And that's the hard 

Andrea Hiott: part is, is opening that. Space. Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. And now you're not allowing me the right to say a difficult truth, you know, which is I mean, yeah, but anyway, that's not a 

Andrea Hiott: judge. I mean, how could you decide all of this, but I think that's what we want in, uh, not we, but this, this [01:06:00] weird thing that actually isn't any one individual, but it's some kind of weird inertia of all people seemingly deciding as the media.

Um, and it's probably just, Like now it's just algorithms of getting attention, but I'm sure it was similar back then, right? It was going to be a big story, and so everyone kind of just repeats it because it's going to get a lot of attention. Yeah, something like that. It gets kind of almost hysterical.

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. And, you know, I mean, there are lots of hard lessons to learn and that you can't speak into a tsunami, you know, there were many strategic things I could have done different, but I feel at peace about the fact that I acted in really good faith with all the players involved. And that's what I was saying about sometimes having the peace of your own, like, are you good with yourself, you know, when you play games that that makes you really vulnerable because then you are trapped in.

Like too many positions, you know. I was with my own truth, uh, my own intention and I could stand by [01:07:00] that and I could take the hits for it, you know. I would not have been able to take the hits for something duplicitous or, um, you know, manipulative. It's very 

Andrea Hiott: strong. It feels to me like real power, you know, which isn't the kind of the way that word is used often, but.

And there's something about time I've thought of a lot during this conversation of how a different concept of time, because a lot of this is like this temporary hits or temporary grabbing of attention, and it's very hard not to react in that short time period to, like, maybe you could have tried to suddenly rectify everything and change your position or, or whatever, but.

You just kind of sat in the difficult situation, you know, and, um, over time it makes more sense, right? And people trust you, because you held that space. 

Shoma Chaudhury: One of the things that happened for me out of that, and it again talks about also not getting so, uh, Trapped in the short frame of something, you know, there's always a frame outside of that.

And if I believed everything that was [01:08:00] going on in the media at that point, I, you know, like close friends said, Oh, like, you know, in your place at a committed suicide or etc. And I was like, I didn't feel, I didn't feel I was, I didn't feel I was something ugly. So even if someone's positioning me as ugly, I'm not feeling ugly, you know.

But the beautiful thing that happened to me from that is that I eventually got invited to give the Gandhi oration, uh, at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, soon after the scandal, you know, and, uh, I asked the, uh, you know, and I'd gone into a kind of. period of, I would say like just below, because all my work blew up, so you had to start from scratch again.

So I said like, how did you reach out or why? And it was like one of the most wonderful things that happened because the person who invited me said, because we watched you in that time of conflict and fire and you behaved from very Gandhian positions, you know. Oh, 

Andrea Hiott: that makes me want to tear up or something.

That's very beautiful. 

Shoma Chaudhury: It felt really [01:09:00] nice, and that again showed me that, outside that layer of noise, there were others who even in this time of frenzied media could sift through, you know, so if you're like, and that's you have to have that kind of faith. But I just want to say one other thing, you know, you were talking about tough lessons, where I feel I really grew there.

And it was a moment of pivoting for me, because a little bit of that understanding about what detachment means came from a position of humility, you know, so if I were to pull, like, Distill everything I've been talking about, uh, the immediate aftermath of that was a sudden fall from grace. You know, suddenly you're not invited anywhere.

I used to like speak in forums across the world. I'm suddenly not invited. Lots of friends, you know, even like meet you socially, you know, you're like that. Yeah. I had young kids and, you know, so it, and so just for a while. I was shuffling at that, you know, Oh, [01:10:00] like that went by. I wasn't invited. Oh, suddenly I'm not being asked to speak anywhere.

You know, I'm not on television. I'm not being invited to give my views on anything. 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: And then I had this wonderful quiet moment again in like a forest walk behind my house. And I suddenly said to myself, I said, what's going on? Like, you know, the tree, like I'm be morning, not getting fruit. But the tree has been cut down, you know, so obviously the fruits not coming my way, the whole tree is gone, you know, and it was such a moment of like, again, I'm using these words and I hope it doesn't sound cliched and sanctimonious, but like these words to me have got reanimated with meaning, you know, like I had that moment of humility.

To see big effing deal, you know, like shit happens and it happens to everybody and I cannot grasp at the fruit when the trees gone, you know, so let's just start again like the sea, you know, and that was [01:11:00] so freeing like that. That's what I was talking about, like that acceptance that life does not owe you a joyride right through, you know, 

Audio Only - All Participants: so 

Shoma Chaudhury: the ability to take the hits without feeling over personal.

So today I've had to count some of the things I'm proud of is like, I'm not bitter, I'm not angry, and I'm not like trying to, you know, I don't feel any need for any bookkeeping on any of this, you know, so that sense of flow. And in a way 

Andrea Hiott: that's, One of the biggest services or gifts you could give I can say this you don't have to agree because That's an extreme example of a difficult situation where you know Someone that you respect or care about it or that's part of your life is I mean We won't go into everything that happened but this is a difficult situation and then to have to go through what you just described where, you know, literally, it probably feels like overnight, all the things that you could have invested in as, as your definition of self were gone, right?

Like all these [01:12:00] invitations and these things that people kind of live on as their definition of self. but that service is that you could hold that space and go through it. And. Give that as an example. I think that's probably what I felt in your conversations. And I think that's what I'm trying, I was trying to dig out of how did you learn that.

Because it is not an easy thing to learn to hold the space and be, as you described it, you know, kind of totally present but not taking yourself personally. Almost like watching yourself. And, and still in awe and wonder, even as you're participating fully and actively and with vigilance. It's holding the paradox, I often say.

So it's kind of a, it's, it's a really big gift, right? That you went through that. So it's not for nothing, right? And um, and I think it becomes more so over time because all of us go through that at different scales. Not the scale that you did, but in our everyday life. When somebody says something or hurts you or you do something even like you make a mistake and it's embarrassing, right?

And then you have to kind of hold the space and the more you learn how to do [01:13:00] that It's back to that practice The more life opens up and the more you can be in a state of wonder and presence and engagement and curiosity so all this is connected and now I have to also say I made a mistake earlier because in a kind of Embarrassing because you were saying nature and for some reason I heard Nietzsche.

perspectivalism, but actually it's connected, right? this idea of, in philosophy of, of, of being able to hold many different positions. we learn that when we can be in nature in the way that sounds like it's been very important for you. Like that story is very beautiful that you just told.

And I'm imagining that you had that as a kid, maybe this nature experience where you do, you can think of like, for me, it sounds like you kind of put yourself in the position of the tree, or of, of the landscape or, or whatever. And, um, it helps you to put these things into a different way of seeing them.

So anyway, so nature, that's a very important word. 

Shoma Chaudhury: That time we were talking on so many strands. I forgot to circle back on that. [01:14:00] Nature, it again, connects back, I guess, with proportionality. You know, I mean, I think nature gives you a sense of. proportionality. And I'm, you're making me see some things which are like fairly, you know, I, it doesn't sound so personal, but like, it's really the textures of me is that even I, yeah, when I'm in like really difficult positions, I often like, I might actually like a tree really matters to me There's that. You know, it's like that reaching for light. So again, like, uh, I think one of those helplines in my life is to reach for light, you know, you can either wallow in stuff or you reach for light and like trees have that, you know, it's that. 

So, and you know, you. For me, like I was just thinking, I again, like it's from a position of humility that I want to say that all of this was enabled for me because I genuinely live in a circle of love, you know, and I've been very, very, very blessed with love in my life, whether [01:15:00] friendships, my siblings, my sister in particular.

My partner, you know, my husband, unbelievable man. And then my kids, you know, my boys. So right through this sort of, you know, bobbing boat through life, some way or the other, like if you find love and, and, you know, some people like I've been blessed with, uh, human love in different forms, you know, friends, siblings, partners, but a professional love.

But some may not even be blessed with that. But that's again, like you come to understand, like, you know, yeah, like, that was really a big source of strength. And that that redemptive quality of love could come from many things, you know, for many people, it comes out of work, it comes out of, you know, it could come out of anything which gives you that.

sort of, uh, space of just being, you know, like not [01:16:00] having to prove. So it could be a relationship with music and 

Andrea Hiott: yeah, music, I think is, or nature too, right. Where you can relax into the space. 

Shoma Chaudhury: You feel bigger 

Andrea Hiott: than all this other stuff somehow. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. And, and of course the nourishment of human love is, is huge, you know, and everything one says about love and I'm not just saying romantic love, just the power of, uh, love.

It makes you, you know, it holds you very strong. It does hold 

Andrea Hiott: you. And I'm, thank you for bringing it back to that. Cause that, that was going to be my sort of. Where I wanted to go to end because I think nature and the way that you described it and also I was imagining because you brought up your sister and I was You can feel that there was Family holding you and, and again, family doesn't have to be the people that you know, your parents and your sisters and your brothers and you can find family and in books and different groups and nature and music.

We all find it in some way, but it's that sense of expansiveness, isn't it? Where you, cause we're, we're all I think this gets to [01:17:00] the relativism too in a way that things aren't relative. We are all connected and it is a moving ongoing thing, but you can. There's wonder and curiosity is in a way relaxing into that wider space, isn't it?

In a way, I guess we all, however we access that, it's very helpful in dealing with these situations that we've been talking about. And maybe even it's what we're trying to open up with conversations. Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: I think with conversations, I think the wonderful metaphor you use was about doors and portals, you know, like for me, uh, the power of conversation is that, you know, that you can't live many lives.

you live one, which is your own, but conversations is your opportunity to enter so many other, uh, life experiences, you know, and learn. them, take from them. So it's like so much of clay. And I definitely, like, I, I think I'm a pastiche of, you know, when you admire somebody, you like, it's not just to admire, but [01:18:00] to say, Hey, like, what do I like about them?

You know, what is that attitude? And then how do you incorporate? It's like a pattern or a rhythm or something you, you, it takes part of you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and again, like that, you said movies, books, conversations, and also stories. I think, you know, we underestimate the power of stories like we were talking about a story of yourself, or a story of a nation, or a, like, who are leaders and how do you move others?

Is your capacity to Tell a story, you know, and every circumstance is a story and yeah, although you put on something the spin you put on something completely changes your experience of that, you know, so that I think that, yeah, that love for stories and other people's journeys. It's But, you know, it also changes your experience of something because if you shift the lens on it, it just, the whole, your whole reality [01:19:00] changes, you know?

Andrea Hiott: Yeah, it does. That's why being brave enough to look at your own story and share it, and, and also opening, like, what you're doing with your work now, there would be so much more to talk about, but, you know, you're opening spaces where people can at least have the chance to do that, right? In a safe space.

to share their story and I'm sure that who knows how many people but even if it's just one person who kind of hears your story here and needed to somehow have that portal opened and then now it's like okay someone else has felt that way so I can sit with it. It makes a huge difference and I think it we can't put it into words why it matters so much but I really think it does matter a lot.

So all that to say. You know, thanks for the work you're doing and thanks for sharing and being open and talking about all this with us today. I just want to send you gratitude for all that. Thank you so much, 

Shoma Chaudhury: Andrea. It was wonderful talking to you. And you're very sensitive, not just because you said so many nice things about me, but just your own search for [01:20:00] things.

It's like such a wonderful, sensitive search light, you know? Well, thank you. 

Andrea Hiott: I mean, yeah, I mean, it's coming from. Definitely a place of, of just, I think what you mean by curiosity too, so I think maybe that's how I connected with you and it's opened up my landscapes, so, and, and so many ways it didn't even get into because a lot of the people that you had on your, on the Synapse, which everyone I'm going to link to, some of, quite a few of them were new for me, right?

So this has to do with opening up new countries to one another too, I mean, you opened up some new things in that sense too, so. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for, uh, feeding my curiosity. Please come for signups. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Uh, the dates are there, 22nd, 23rd, so I really hope you come for it, you know? 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah, definitely. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: Alright, is there anything that you want to say before we go, or any comments or just stuff you want me to know, or? Anything I didn't get to. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Well, that's so much because I'd have loved to ask you things about you and [01:21:00] so many stories to tell. I just wanted to come back to that one note about forgiveness because you know when you talk to people, there's a lot of that.

So there's, there's about forgiving others, but I just want to again stress that kindness to oneself, you know, like when you don't lock yourself into. the positions of your past. That's, you know, I know I had to do that a lot. Like I had to sit in peace and, you know, because you also participate in your own pain.

So you do things, you know, you're attached to people who've caused you pain and how do you forgive yourself for that is again, I think a very spiritual practice. It's not always just about the others, but, uh, freeing yourself up to be a free agent. 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. 

Shoma Chaudhury: I was gonna, 

Andrea Hiott: I mean, maybe it's We can talk about it another time, but I was going to ask you about that vulnerability or because you know We didn't talk about like being a woman, but when you're a very strong woman, right?

And you're you're also [01:22:00] like in a position where you're a public strong woman and so just thinking of that and how You're gonna you're not gonna always be right. I guess like nobody is always right. you're but when you're publicly You know, make a mistake or something like yeah, I I guess that vulnerability I was going to ask you like how do you stay Vulnerable to yourself because I, I catch myself sometimes, you know, where you're, you're supposed to be in a position of authority, right?

I'm supposed to be a philosopher. So if someone knows something about philosophy, I you know, you kind of like need to have to catch myself and try to remain vulnerable or remain humble is a better word, not vulnerable, but yeah, 

Shoma Chaudhury: I, um, I do. I mean. I would say again, external knowledge.

I'm, I used to be, that would have been my younger self now. I'm not, because it's just like, you know, the world is so, uh, huge that there's no. [01:23:00] I don't know everything. it's just possible, you know, so I hide from that. But the woman factor, yeah, like I think, um, you know, being called a strong woman, there was a lot of.

Some of the position, you know, and some of the turbulences I've been in in life and with, again, mostly I would say with attachments to people, uh, you know, the illusion of people that you've, uh, sort of wedded yourself to. And, um, and in some ways then you, you, you know, you're participating in pain, which would not be your normal public construct, you know?

That's what I was saying that you to, that takes real courage to sit with yourself. And see yourself outside all the constructs, you know, and genuinely forgive that that that for me was very freeing. I keep trying to like that's genuinely something I would love to gift people [01:24:00] in pain, the And a lot of my friends who have been in difficult positions or whatever, I keep saying, you know, just try that.

Like, it's really hard. Like, it's a gift I want to give people of, like, how do you just sit with yourself, let your thoughts flow and see them. It's like, again, that bringing back that idea of cinema and a story, like when you, you know, when you drop all those facades and defense mechanisms and constructs and you can just sit with yourself, I guess it's meditation, but it's not even conscious meditation.

It's just like letting it. Become transparent to you, letting yourself become transparent to you, you know, and when you see that and you can cringe and you can like, you know, say, Oh, what version of myself was that? Yeah. Like watching a movie where sometimes you can hardly watch it. It's like watching a movie, you know, and that's.

For me, that has been very, very liberating, you know, to be able to do that. So if, if at all, I could use this conversation to gift that to people is to really, I, I'm re I've repeated it two, [01:25:00] three times, but to say, you don't have to get so locked into being, uh, just that one version of yourself. 

Andrea Hiott: I think it's worth repeating because it's not something like, it's one of those weird things that if you know it, you know, that's Really important, but we never talk about it. It's not really like in our public persona because I think that's why I brought this vulnerability and stuff or hump because it seems like you're It's, you're not supposed to admit that there might be hard things to watch in your life, even though we all know there are, right?

But when you do your Facebook page or your Instagram, you're not supposed to show that stuff, so. But I think it just, it's great that you did say it a few times, because it really is this practice of, what we've been coming back to in different ways, this theme of not taking yourself too seriously, but being very present to yourself.

That's the weird paradox you learn how to hold, and, and also learning that you are an important, unique, um, person. being, but you're changing all the time too. And so you can look at yourself as you would a book or a movie in a way, [01:26:00] and you can change the story, you know? It's a real powerful thing, and I do think conversations help that, like, you know, when you're, when I watch you in conversation, I'm, I'm learning that pattern, right?

And so that you've gone through all this stuff in your life, and so you've, you've, you can hold this pattern, you can hold this space, and, and in a way, just watching you do that, Becomes a lesson even though you don't because you can't speak it. You can't say like here's what you do I mean you've tried in this conversation and there's a way we can point to it but in truth a person has to go through that a few times before it becomes something that You can sit you can sit and watch and do you know, so I 

Shoma Chaudhury: just 

Andrea Hiott: wanted to 

Shoma Chaudhury: end with one scientific fact, which again would be a perfect metaphor for everything we've been talking about.

I just read about it yesterday because I want to get someone with gene editing at SunApp. And it's like just the marvel of it. So that's again my point, you know, that even when see I'm Like age reversal or some aspects of AI or even gene editing, you may [01:27:00] have social dilemmas or ethical issues. But first of all, I just want to marvel at the intelligence of people to think like it keeps saying, like, how did someone even think that death is not inevitable?

Like, I just want to marvel at that level of. Intrepid thinking, you know, but anyway, so the, the fact I wanted to leave this conversation with is that apparently as an adult, we have 27 trillion cells in our body and that's undergoing like a billion, a hundred billion mutations every day. You know, like that's how mutating.

every day you're mutating a billion times. It's crazy. 

Andrea Hiott: But what stays the same is the pattern. I mean, in philosophy it's a kind of ship of Theseus thing, right?

Because there's, again, it's not relative. It's not that you're just totally a new person because you have patterns, but you can shift those patterns. You know, and that's how we kind of open new worlds and that's why when something strikes you as so [01:28:00] Contrary to your own patterns. It's a portal. It doesn't mean you need to take on that pattern That's why I said do it safely and I think that's why we were talking about all this presence and research and stuff because it's not that you just take on that but it is, you know, it's showing you That there's other patterns in the world that are very different from yours.

You might be able to learn something, you might be able to open something. 

Audio Only - All Participants: Do 

Andrea Hiott: you mind if I just say one 

Shoma Chaudhury: other quick thing? Yeah, no, not 

Andrea Hiott: at 

Shoma Chaudhury: all. They, uh, remembered one other tool of, you know, which has helped and I think again, It's not relative. I think that really does help people is that coming back to the power of conversation.

You know, I acknowledge my loved ones, my siblings, my husband and all of that, but there was a particular friend who I've had like a stream of consciousness conversation with over 10 tumultuous years of my life, you know, and that that space. To just talk, you know, is beans. It's again the power of conversation.

It [01:29:00] allows you perspective. It allows things to breathe. You can laugh, you know, it externalize like the Ferris wheel in your head when it's out there. And in a safe space, it just Suddenly, you can see it, you know, and it's not a 

Andrea Hiott: cycle in your head anymore. It's so funny you say that. I literally was thinking of that today.

A friend was going through something and I, you know, and talked about it and then kind of said, gosh, it's so good to just talk about it. And it is, I mean, even if you don't have someone to talk to, you can write it out or just get it out somehow. Right. You know, talk it out to yourself. I mean, I guess it's what people do online too sometimes now is just put it, but do it in a truthful way, you know, to yourself.

Shoma Chaudhury: Yes, it comes back to the power of conversation. It's very healing, you know, it's 

Andrea Hiott: yeah it is and it's Friendship is so important and I think all this is a model of two of being friends with yourself and also it can be with books. A lot of us read books and we've, we've, [01:30:00] we find ways of externalizing our own stuff or listening to other people's conversations.

And, I guess the point is Somehow look for a way to have a conversation about it or listen to a conversation about it or watch a conversation about it. It helps. All right. Well, I've just loved this and I feel like I could talk to you forever. I love that we just went to where we did. And I think. It feels like, um, somebody probably needed to hear all this, whatever this was.

So I really, really thank you for doing it, for going there and yeah, talking about it. 

Shoma Chaudhury: Thank you so much. I love talking to you as well. It was great. 

Andrea Hiott: Thank you. All right. Bye.