#87 the Money Koan: towards a new philosophy of curren(t)cy and care with investor Jenna Nicholas

Andrea Hiott in conversation with investor Jenna Nicholas. 

Jenna discusses her book The Enlightened Bottom Line and how spirituality, love, and purpose can inform investing and business rather than oppose them. She traces formative experiences from ages 11–14 in a Swiss “Transformation for Peace” program and speaking at Commonwealth Day in Westminster Abbey, including meeting Desmond Tutu, to the confidence instilled by her mother and grandmother, faith, and a lifelong practice of hosting “Saturdays at Jen’s” discussion groups.

After moving from London to Stanford, she was inspired by social entrepreneurs, worked on socially responsible investing in China with mentor Wayne Silby (Calvert Funds), and later organized experiences and interviews exploring profit–purpose paradoxes. She describes practices like symbolic objects to bridge divides, dreams-based decision-making in the Amazon, and a HEAL framework (Hope, Empathy, Abundance, Legacy), emphasizing pauses, stewardship, seven-generation thinking, and money as “currency” valuable when in motion.

Find Jenna’s book The Enlightened Bottom Line here.

Parker Palmer conversation with Andrea is here

Jacob Needleman conversation with Andrea is here.

00:00 Welcome and Book Setup

00:25 Teen Years and Abbey Speech

02:25 Tutu High Five and Lasting Joy

04:01 the Women Who Raised Her

06:48 Holding Paradox in Community

08:56 From Stanford to Impact Investing

11:40 Choosing Stanford by Fate

14:43 Wayne Silby and Legacy Shift

17:18 Bhutan and Business of Happiness

19:24 Enoughness and Inner Compass

22:52 Saturdays at Jens Conversations

25:14 Fierce Love in Organizations

27:25 Creating Listening Spaces

28:03 Building Impact Experience

28:40 Coal Meets Solar Values

30:13 Redefining Money Capital

34:00 Heal Framework Questions

35:37 Hope Empathy Abundance

37:16 Playful Abundance Wand

40:04 Amazon Dream Circles

43:03 Death Joy Legacy

46:31 Stewardship Seven Generations

49:02 Reflection Questions Pauses

52:40 Grandmother Loving Kindness

55:37 Honoring Stories Love

57:15 Podcast Farewell

The Enlightened Bottom Line by Jenna Nicholas

Jenna’s Substack is here.

Jenna on LinkedIn

Baha’i Faith

Books discussed in addition to the Enlightened Bottom Line:

InnSaei: the Icelandic Art of Intuition by Hrund Gunnsteinsdottir

The Soul of Money by Lynne Twist

Full intro and notes here.

Care is not the opposite of love. It is the very urge of life. 'Caring for what?' is the primary question. That we have a choice about what we care for and how is what makes us human, but it's quite the challenge and responsibility. Let's help one another handle it.

Leadership Lessons From The Great Books
Understanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand (yet)...

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Transcript

The Money Koan with Jenna Nicholas: What is currency?

Jenna Nicholas: [00:00:00] I remember calling my mom and saying, I want to be a social entrepreneur. And she said, what is that? I was like, I don't know, but that's what I wanna do. 

and at the retreat they had them reflect on what would it say on your tombstone. And his reflection was, it would say the man that made 2% more than the next man. And his reflection was, this isn't really the legacy that I want to leave. 

there's an amazing talk that Bobby Kennedy gave in 1968 where he talked about gross national product and that it doesn't measure some of the most important things in our lives. and it sort of, it just measures everything except that which makes life worthwhile.

And so I think this real interrogation around what are we optimizing for?

And a theme I come back to a lot in the book is of what is enough and, and that having this conversation. You know, with ourselves and with our family and with our community to not just take for granted, what, what success means. And that, it can and should be, I think a real, real conversation and [00:01:00] exploration. 

Andrea Hiott: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Love and Philosophy. This is Andrea Hiott, and today we're going to be talking about money. Money is a word that might strike you in all sorts of ways: motivating, painful, complex, exciting. The words go on and on with how we could describe this or when we think of a certain time in our life when we had to deal with money in a certain way.

But I wonder how many of you thought of the word care when I said money. Did anyone have that idea come to mind, that money might be a way we're caring for one another? What if it were? What if we could think of money that way, as somehow connected to what we care most about, What if we thought of it more like a currency, actually, that's always shifting and changing, and that we shift and change through our bodies and through what our bodies care for? Which means also our minds, of course, because our minds are part of our bodies.

So what if as we're navigating this world, care is already something like a currency, and we begin to think of money like that. [00:02:00] Is that too wild? maybe it's not too wild. I think a lot of people are starting to do things very similar to that. But of course, we have this whole long history of money and what it means in so many different cultures and so many different languages.

And today, we're gonna talk about it just a little bit, really one specific sort of area of it, which is actually the first time I think we've ever talked about investing business sort of ideas directly on the show. But Jenna Nicholas has reached out 

She's a founder and an investor, graduate of Stanford Business School, and she's written a book, and she's also done a lot of interviews with a lot of investors and people who are trying to consider the bottom line through an enlightened perspective, and her book is The Enlightened Bottom Line, I was already thinking about a lot of ideas relative to this s- paradox, I guess, of money, of this seemingly invisible and yet ever-present, Idea, currency, flow, actual material exchange, non-material [00:03:00] exchange, digits, paper, metal, all these different ways that we think of money. I was already thinking about that a little bit as a paradoxical place to try to feature on the show. So she reached out, and I thought, "Oh, this is a good chance to start, on this subject a little bit."

And for those of you who like the more practical or everyday sorts of episodes where we talk about someone's life and, and their work and their practical ideas and advice for you, this is one of those shows. And her book is like that too. For all of you out there who are working with businesses, starting a business, part of a business, dealing with anything like that, the book itself is really literally trying to help you think about your, your business and what you're investing in and what you're doing, with your investments through a more enlightened so-called lens.

Or what I'm thinking of as care, as actually thinking about what we care about and taking it very seriously that where we put our money is somehow about what we want to [00:04:00] grow in terms of what we want the world to have more of and what we want to be able to share with others and how we want to relate to others.

Jenna and I talk about money as currency here in that way a little bit, and she's really trying to think through those, and she's trying very hard every day to live through those in the work she does, even as an investor working in all these different situations. so we will talk about that through her life through capital and conscious as not being opposites but as being somehow connected as this currency.

She brings up Parker Palmer, so I'm gonna link to a conversation I had with Parker in the show notes because I think it's actually very interesting to listen to these together because Parker has lived his whole life towards what he really cares about. part of that for him was healing what was a divide in him relative to what he cared about, what he wanted to do with his life, and what these other structures said he should do.

I would suggest listening to that conversation as [00:05:00] well. Another person I thought of a lot after talking with Jenna was Jacob Needleman. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. He was a philosopher, an American philosopher, and I read him a lot when I was a teenager and even in my early 20s. And I actually had a chance to have some conversations with him, and I remembered one of them after talking with Jenna because in this conversation I say something about money being like a koan, a K-O-A-N, which is this spiritual, sort of insight or meditation in, in Zen Buddhism, where you just sort of hold something contradictory in mind or you think of something like one of the questions is, what is the sound of one hand clapping, for example.

So the point of a koan isn't to solve something. You don't really answer that question, but it's more about sitting with the tension or the paradox or even the absurdity and therefore noticing your old habits of thinking and then you can sort of use that as a threshold to think what I often talk about as as a constellation.

this is, possibly what money could be for us. And Jacob was actually telling me about that, [00:06:00] and I will also link to that conversation because it's very interesting. He talks about it as not being sacred in itself, money, but actually being, something that does alert us to the sacredness and the love and the ongoing relation that we have with each other and with the world.

You know, when we think of money as a koan, then it becomes a mediator again. It's actually something that's there to help us expand and connect from life to life through life, not, a goal or an endpoint, which is how I think a lot of people grew up thinking about money right now. But it doesn't have to be that way.

It really could be more like a currency that we're, that's helping us flow along our path and that we give to help others flow along their path. Another idea that came into my mind after this conversation was this line we've had the experience but missed the meaning, and that's from T.S. Eliot. You won't be surprised because I talk about T.S. Eliot a lot and the Four Quartets. That, that really feels like what I'm trying to describe here.

That the meaning is here, and we could actually think of money through and as meaning, and as [00:07:00] part of the urge of our body caring for what it cares about, which would be different for each of us because we each have something different to give. we could help each other do that because each of us would have something to gain from that because we have the whole so much knowledge from everyone else to gain.

So what if we thi-think of it like that? That's really the idea here, just to hold that question. What if we thought of care and money together? And just getting towards that, we start to talk about it just a little bit here with Jenna. Maybe we'll come back to it in other conversations later on. But I think this is a wonderful way to begin it because it's very practical.

This idea of really imagining that we can have symbols, shared symbols like money that actually are doing something like caring, flowing, meaning.

Or at least that's how I would like for us to think of it or for it to be possible at some point. maybe it already is possible for you now like that. Maybe you have some stories to share. Maybe you also have been through a lot with money, and you've had to find different ways to, to deal with [00:08:00] this.

Wherever you may be, I'm sure you have a story that could help someone and will help someone because there is something that you care about. And when you think about what you care about, you do find a kind of flow. I would like to think of that as the currency of life and the real, the real wealth, I suppose we could say it like that.

But to really change these wider systems which constrain a lot of us, all of us, I guess, in different ways, of course, we really have to dance with this, rediscover exactly what's going on here, and try to shift it from within, shift the current from within. And we can do that, but only together. I hope that wherever you are in the world, you're feeling the currency today in a good way, feeling the flow, and that you receive what you need to receive and can give what you need to give or what you can give, because giving is itself a form of wealth.

I'm happy to bring you this conversation with Jenna Nicholas. Her book is The Enlightened Bottom Line, and you can find it in the show notes. I'll also read that Four Quartets poem at the end. I'll go and [00:09:00] find it. I think it's from The Dry Salvages. but I'll find it and read at least that little section at the end.

But as we're moving through this, let's just think about money and how we might shift it to help one another care more and to care for each other more in a more natural and non-judgmental exciting sense so that when we hear the word money in the future, the first thing that comes to mind is care.

Hi Jenna. It's so wonderful to have you on love and philosophy. Thanks for being here today. 

Jenna Nicholas: Thanks so much. It's wonderful to be here. 

Andrea Hiott: to get started, I'm thinking about maybe starting when you're around 13, 14. Does that sound okay? 

Jenna Nicholas: That sounds great. 

Andrea Hiott: Is that when you, uh, did this event at Westminster Abbey, or can you just tell us where were you around that age and what happened in your life that seems to have kind of prompted you towards this book, even though you couldn't have known it back then?

Jenna Nicholas: Yes. No, thank you and I really appreciate that. It's definitely a really formative time in my life. I, leading up to that, I'll say, so I, [00:10:00] from the ages of 11 to 14, I took part in a program in Switzerland called Transformation for Peace, and it was with young people from all around the world, and it was all about.

Reflecting on our values and place in the world. And it was inspired by the, the high teachings. It was very much focused on looking at, actually very much aligned with your podcast, sort of looking at themes around love and philosophy in, in practice. And, uh, that really kind of helped to spark within me this idea of, you know, how do we integrate our values into our life on a daily basis.

And I was invited as, uh, you alluded to, to, speak at an event at Westminster Aey. It was Commonwealth Day and there were leaders from all around the world, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu had come from South Africa with a choir. And uh, the Queen was there and Tony Blair was Prime Minister at the time.

And it was, um. This is an incredible event. And they had people from different faith backgrounds, young people, share a [00:11:00] passage from their scriptures and kind of reflections around how that played out in, in their thoughts and, and philosophy. And so I had a chance to share, this line from the BA writings that has continued to be a deep inspiration to me.

And it's a, a human being who was organic with the world, his or her inner being, molds the environment and is deeply affected by it. The one acts upon the other. And every abiding change in the life of a human is the result of these mutual interactions. And I continue to this day to think so much about this idea of like, how are we shaping.

The environment around us and how are we also shaped by that? And so after I, uh, well actually, right before I did this, um, this sharing, I had a chance to, um, meet, Archbishop Tutu. And, he said to me, are you nervous? And I said, no, are you? And he gave me a high five. And it was just such a beautiful, joyful, interaction.

And about 10 years later, I, was in the process of building this coalition of foundations to [00:12:00] shift capital from fossil fuels into new economy solutions. And I had a chance to meet him again as he was a big proponent of that work. And, uh, I told him, you know, 10 years ago, I, you know, I met you and you gave me a high five.

And he said, well, you know, I give you a high five, then I'll give you a high five and a hug now. So it was just so beautiful. It was like always laughing and I think laughter in so much of this work is, you know, such an important aspect. And so, I always, always remember him. 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. Such joy just coming from him.

But you said so many powerful things there. I mean, the quote is very powerful. A lot of people who listen to this podcast, we talk a lot about embodied cognition and you talk about embodiment too, but also this participatory kind of sense making that we're always doing with the world. And I really heard that in that quote from a different angle, which is beautiful.

But also you said, yeah, I was 14, I was invited to speak. The queen was there as if it was so normal. So I, I really have to ask, how did you have this poise that you weren't nervous at 14? Did it have something to do with the women in your life? [00:13:00] Because as I was reading your book, I noticed you had some really strong women, in your life.

The spirituality seems connected to that, but I really wanna know how you had that poise and what brought you to that, that place? 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm mm I love that, that question. And it's, uh, 100%, I think it's a huge amount has to do with the. Women that raised me. So I, I was raised by my, my mother and grandmother.

And from a very young age, they really cultivated in me, both a deep confidence, but I think it came from a deep place of love. Like I, I, I could feel, uh, so viscerally the love that they had for me and my, my mother almost passed away giving birth to me. And I think that there was part of that and my grandmother was there, and it was a pretty traumatic experience.

And I think that that process of the fact that we were all alive, like I always had this sense of like, it was cultivated within me a deep sense of like, gratitude for even being here. And uh, and I think as a result of that, there was, um, yeah, [00:14:00] just, just a lot of love. I also, I think, um, the, like, faith and spirituality was a really big part of my life from, from a young age.

And I think a lot of. Confidence and strength came from sort of building from a resource that was beyond just me. and so when I would, it wasn't that I was nervous at all. I mean, I was being a little cheeky when I interacted with, with, um, with Desmond Ti. But, but I, I, um, I think that anywhere the confidence came and I think to this day is, um, kind of when I'm able to get out of my own way and it's actually being more of a, a channel for something bigger than myself rather than like, oh, I'm so great and that's why I can do these things.

So, I think that's definitely, and something that was cultivated at Young Age and continues to be a through line and, and both my mother and grandmother have since passed on. If anything, I think I feel that, um, that love and that strength may maybe even more greatly, um, since they've passed on. 

Andrea Hiott: Wow, that's amazing because for a couple of reasons, The [00:15:00] joy that I was thinking of with, Desmond Tutu, that's kind of an example of it too, of being so aware that this life is miraculous and amazing all the time. Like we get kind of numb to it. But if you really, almost because we can't handle it. Because if you really think about how precious and amazing every moment is, it's quite, um, overwhelming.

And it sounds like your mom and your grandmother and these people around you were, that your mom and your grandmother were aware of that. They had, they, they, they thought of it more than maybe most people do, that comes up. But also, you talk about holding the c contradiction, which is another theme of the show, which we're gonna get to in a minute, I feel like that space, is that what you were just talking about? Of not be getting in your own way? when you're holding the contradiction and the way you express it in the book as well, there is a kind of, conversational happening with the world that feels like that kind of love you are expressing.

Does that make any sense at all? 

Jenna Nicholas: Well, a hundred percent it makes so much sense and I think that it's in community that where so much of that love and like that resourcing comes [00:16:00] from. And I think certainly a big part of the motivation for me in writing the book was less as a true ties and a sort of, this is a, this the, you know, set of answers, but more how are we holding these questions in community together.

And the, you know, book is based on a series of interviews with various. Investors and business leaders and other thought leaders about how have they cultivated these concepts of bridging this paradox as, as you say, of finding meaning and within money and the balance of profits and purpose and how these pieces come together.

And I think that the extent to which we're able to hold that in community and to hold it with love and to hold it with grace and gentleness and know that these, um, complex topics that where there's can often be a lot of emotional baggage and, um, context that we're kind of bringing to some of these conversations and interactions.

And [00:17:00] so the more that we can hold up with care, I think is where, you know, there's so much opportunity. 

Andrea Hiott: it's interesting and I wanna get into what your book is really doing and how you got into this, it's about, investing in business and doing this with purpose and meaning.

I'll let you tell it better, but, you're also challenging something that a lot of us just kind of assume and maybe don't even know that we assume, which is that spirituality goes on one side of life. And it's the opposite of of what we think of as material concerns, which is where we lump everything like money and financial gain what you're saying in the book is, true power is what we've been talking about. Holding that embracing that as a kind of seeming contradiction that when you explore it becomes not really contradictory so much as like a resonant tension, yeah, I want you to tell us how you got.

from that place at Westminster Aby into even thinking about investing and money And then maybe we can start to understand how you've seen maybe notice that that was an opposing idea, and how you've then come to develop it in this different way.

Jenna Nicholas: Yeah, so I was brought up in London and then I, [00:18:00] I came out to the us uh, to do my undergrad at Stanford. And growing up I actually thought that I might go into human rights law or I was like very motivated by social justice work. And so the last thing I thought I would be doing, uh, to your point, was working in business or, or investing, but it was really coming to, to Stanford.

And I remember my, my first year. Having, taking a class and hearing from these social entrepreneurs. I remember calling my mom and saying, I want to be a social entrepreneur. And she said, what is that? I was like, I don't know, but that's what I wanna do. Um, and I remember just being so motivated and inspired by, you know, hearing from these incredible people that had really bridged building sustainable revenue, producing models with having deep social and environmental impact and across a broad range of areas, so within healthcare and climate and education.

And it really kind of captivated me around this could be a, um, a career and a pathway, [00:19:00] um, to follow and, and it became really organic. From there, I had a chance to meet some incredible investors that were doing work in China and began to just collaborate with them on some projects in China and ended up moving to China to, uh, teach a class on social responsible investing.

And we would lead delegations for. Us and European investors to China and Chinese investors to, to Europe. Um, all with a focus around social responsible investing and just kept seeing models. And this is, you know, over the last 15 years. And so the industry has really developed over these years of, I think previously there really was this, you know, we have one pool of capital that we're just focusing on maximizing wealth and another pool of capital that's for philanthropy.

I think what's been really exciting to see is, is more and more of these innovative mechanisms, virtually bringing those elements together and really seeing this as something that can exist [00:20:00] across our whole portfolio and whole life. And I think a lot about this line from Parker Palmer, where he talks about divided no more.

And, and it really is that, uh, sense of, you know, how do we achieve that with our lives and our work with our lives and our capital that, um, this really is something that's possible. 

Andrea Hiott: why did you wanna go to Stanford? Because that seems like it's played a very big role in your life.

I mean, you've met so many amazing people there. it's like a scaffolding to the book in a way. It's a way of, you know, you, you, you bring in a lot of stories and very interesting, very successful people who are doing this more impact based, purpose based work.

But how did, why Stanford, like where did that come from? Do you remember? 

Jenna Nicholas: Yeah, it's actually a pretty fun story. So I, um, I was curious to go to university in the us uh, partly because of the approach to education of just the breadth of exploration. I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to study, and just that ability to be able to engage with multiple different subjects in a way that in the UK you [00:21:00] choose the one subject and that's all that you, you do for your time at university.

And then I was actually, I was choosing between Stanford and Yale, and it was the night before I, I had to make a decision. I was parking my car. In London and I started to talk to this man about whether or not I could park there. And I said, I know this is really strange. We had an American accent. So I was like, I know this is really strange, but I have to make this decision, you know, what do you think I should do?

And he was a professor at Stanford. Uh, and so I think it's just one of these things, I think this is kinda this through line of like the power of the universe of, you know, things come up and you're presented with people and opportunities that are, are beyond what we can fully, fully understand. So, uh, once I had that conversation, I was like, okay, I think that's what I meant to do.

Andrea Hiott: That's wonderful because as you were answering the last question, I was actually thinking, you seem like someone who's followed the yellow brick road, so to speak, BEC. Mm-hmm. I, i, I don't even really know what that means, but I just talked to Sophie fines and she told me that her brother Rae is always talking about follow the yellow brick road.

I don't actually know, [00:22:00] but, and so when you were talking, I was thinking, oh, that's, um, that's, that's what it is. It's this, and kind of what I was trying to say again about when you are holding the contradiction, things are sort of, you're in this conversation and it's, it's naturally leading somewhere.

So it's very interesting that you listen to yourself and you talk to that person. Imagine if you hadn't, it's 

Jenna Nicholas: Yeah. Right. No, exactly. Exactly. And I think to so much of your work, I think that it's, it's following love too, right? And like love in like the biggest sense of the word, right? Of like that sort of deep.

Love and calling within, like how that's manifested in the people and the situations that we have the, the opportunity to encounter and to, and to not take that for granted. Right. That, that and what a blessing it is that I think these, these signs and these, um, aspects come into our lives and that we can so easily be so busy and preoccupied with what we think we are meant to be doing, that we don't even see that these, you know, people in the street that, uh, you know, there to maybe teach us [00:23:00] something.

So, um, I think how we continue to stay open to that is something that is a kind of ongoing practice for me. 

Andrea Hiott: Absolutely. It's so hard just the noticing and trusting and trusting that that conversation will continue. it makes me think about Wayne. Is it Wayne sbe? 

Jenna Nicholas: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: Who seems like an important person because as you were talking, I was thinking Yeah, like, we get so distracted about the bottom line, right? 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm. 

Andrea Hiott: That's part of your book. Mm. trying to, we have to make money. We have to do this. We have to kind of become someone. this can seem really different from what we're talking about with following love, which I guess is the yellow brick road actually.

and Wayne seems to have had kind of a moment where he realized that. He's, maybe you wanna introduce him and, this kind of moment that's important. 

Jenna Nicholas: Sure. Yes. It's, uh, something I come back to a lot. So Wayne sbe, he started a, a fund called the Calvert Funds in the late 1970s. And at the time it was just a successful financial [00:24:00] firm.

And he went to a Buddhist retreat and at the retreat they had them reflect on what would it say on your tombstone. And his reflection was, it would say the man that made 2% more than the next man. And his reflection was, this isn't really the legacy that I want to leave. And so he went back to his colleagues and like, we need to make this socially responsible.

And it's now a $45 billion firm. It's been really a pioneer in this area of social responsible investing that really came from. This moment and this reflection on what really is the legacy that he's trying to leave. And he wrote them forward of the, the book and has been a deep inspiration and mentor mean I had a chance to work with him within China and DC and various projects.

And he still serves on a board and a deep friend. And, and I think that, that what is this ability to take these catalytic moments and then transform them [00:25:00] into the organizations that we build and, you know, how we live our lives as a result is something that kind of continues to, to inspire me. So I, I often come back to that, that story.

Andrea Hiott: Is that how you ended up in China working? Was that? Yes, connected. Okay. 

Jenna Nicholas: It's a big part of it. So I, I did my thesis while I was at Stanford on social responsible investing in China. And through that got to know, know Wayne. And, we first met, we just had the most beautiful conversation, kind of like our conversation today about the universe and love and the meaning of life.

And and we were like, we have to do something together. And so we started just working on some projects and it's, uh, you know, one thing led to another and we've been now been collaborating for about 15 years. So it's, um, yeah, quite, quite a privilege. 

Andrea Hiott: Also, I'm thinking about the, the 14-year-old girl who I'm seeing as a very strong, I really like her. I'm thinking also like that person when, like 10 years later at Stanford or wherever, many years later. 'cause you also seem to have been, were you creating things, projects, and things, because didn't you go to [00:26:00] Bhutan can you, can you tell me a little bit about that side of what was going on with your creative conversation with the world?

Jenna Nicholas: Definitely, definitely. I love the way you phrased your questions too, like the creative conversation with the world. That's definitely what it, what it feels like. I, um, yes, I went back to Stanford for business school and, uh, while I was at business school, had a chance with some of my classmates to organize a, a trip to Bhutan on, we call it the business of happiness.

And this, as some people you may know, you know, in Bhutan, rather than focusing on gross national product, they focus on gross national happiness. And it's pretty amazing in terms of. What that looks like. And that was a big part of what we wanted to really investigate as part of this trip was how does that play out in reality?

And one of the things that was really struck by was they have their, they call them spiritual consultants, but they're people that are, basically, their [00:27:00] role is to help to support on the implementation of these principles around gross national happiness within all levels of society and within healthcare organizations and the school system.

And, and so to see the experiment with the implementation of some of these ideas, and of course there's a lot of challenges in that implementation, but being able to really look at, you know, what's working, how are they implementing it, what are lessons learned that could be applicable in other parts of the world, was a big part of the conversation and really looking at.

You know, so many of the, and challenges that we have around thinking about metrics, and there's an amazing talk that Bobby Kennedy gave in 1968 where he talked about gross national product and that it doesn't measure some of the most important things in our lives. and it sort of, it just measures everything except that which makes life worthwhile.

Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: There's, there's a documentary. Maybe I can try to find a link for people that I think explores that a bit.

'cause I think a lot of people don't know [00:28:00] that that experiment, can I call it that? 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm. Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: Is happening. but from your point of view, I'm wondering if these travels, because you've, you've been a lot of places. You've lived a lot of places. Has that changed how you think about what the bottom line actually is?

Or what that means. I mean, 

Jenna Nicholas: totally. And I think also, you know, and how we think about what success means and how we should be living our lives. And I think spending time in, in India and you know, people often reflect on, sometimes it's like people that have the least financial resources but have the, the biggest sense of like happiness and fulfillment and contentment.

And I think that this sort of dichotomy around, like so often in the western world there can be this sense of like, oh, if only I have more and more money, then I will be more and more happy in that we of course see that that so often isn't the case. And so I think this real interrogation around what are we optimizing for?

And a theme I [00:29:00] come back to a lot in the book is of what is enough and, and that having this conversation. You know, with ourselves and with our family and with our community to not just take for granted, what, what success means. And that, uh, it can be a, it can and should be, I think a real, real conversation and exploration.

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. The enoughness, I like that part. but I really even mean more in your own embodied kind of understanding that there's so many different ways that everything can be done. Is it helpful in a way that helps you not get stuck when you're, 'cause then how many companies have you created? Or four? 

Jenna Nicholas: About 

Andrea Hiott: four.

So I mean, you're a very high powered person. You're creating things, So I'm just kind of wondering if, knowing that there's many different ways to do things is helpful for you so that you don't get sucked into trying to, you know, play the game the way it's being played or.

By those around you, if that makes sense. 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm mm For sure. And I think that certainly like coming [00:30:00] back to On's body and like that lived sense, there's, um, an amazing book, called Inai, which um, means it's the Icelandic word for intuition and it literally means inner sea. And it's to, in a sea like the ocean and also in a sea to sea.

And, the author horrendous, a, a dear friend and I think a lot about how are we creating the spaces to tune into our inai, and that that can certainly be through, you know, walking in nature through prayer, through meditation. I love swimming. You know, anything that kind of reconnects us. Back to our center and to our body to be able to really tune into that.

I also do think that so much of that is through inquiry with other people too. and I think in a way that is, uh, have a, you know, dear friend, and we, we do regular spiritual inquiry, right? Where it's, where, where we're really trying to interrogate in a loving and graceful way and with deep care, you know, diff the [00:31:00] different contours of our lives such that we're able to like not just take things at face value.

And I think to to your point, like part of, I think the gift of being exposed to so many different ways of being and showing up in the world, and I think certainly this came through in so many of the interviews that I did for the book, was that you know, we can think, oh, then there's only one way of doing things and it's the way that we've always done things.

And actually continuing to interrogate that I think is, uh, certainly a goal that I have. 

Andrea Hiott: have you always had these kinds of conversations with people that you can trust, where you can explore, meaning and purpose and this spiritual, side of, of yourself and life. 

Jenna Nicholas: It's actually pretty funny.

And you, you started with talking about the, you know, stage 13, 14, actually about age 12, I started, um, at my home in, in London, we called it Saturdays at Jens. And they were just these discussion groups and it started, we would actually often bring in speakers around different [00:32:00] themes and it would be about love and justice and actually it was very philosophy based.

So we would have, you know, quotations from different philosophers and poets and, uh, different faith backgrounds as well. And, uh, and that's really continued to this day. So I still, you know, host those discussion groups in my home and in different cities around the world where I've lived. And, that being in deep conversation, around some of the, you know, biggest topics at a deeper level is something that I really cherish.

And, and particularly having people that are coming from different. Backgrounds and context and that where we can in a, a really loving way, but really, push our thinking around, you know, some of these areas is something that has been a huge source of strength and inspiration to me over the years. 

Andrea Hiott: I think it's so important and something so many of us could start trying to do earlier on in our lives that we don't actually realize is so important, right?

Because you're building those habits you're creating a way to have trusted conversations that helps you in all these other [00:33:00] areas. these are not easy things, right? I don't want it to sound like, oh, you just are, you become enlightened and you just choose love.

And in the moment, in the everyday life, we get stressed, we get worried. These are, you know, there's, there's a lot of actual tension that I'm trying to bring out. I'm not really sure how, and it sounds like you've had ways to kind of deal with that, and I'm trying to bring those out for the audience, but also I'm thinking of this Saying that you say in the book about Let your Heart Burn or something with love, for everyone you meet the burn part, I guess, it, it's like, there's a ca caring is a kind of tense tension, and sometimes extremely transformative and flowing and ecstatic and all that. But I just wonder about you, you know, if, if that makes sense to you, if you think of care and love in business and investing in this way at all, not as just sentimental, but sort of this active feeling.

Jenna Nicholas: 100%. And it's something that come back to a lot is that, you know, people use that language like fierce love and I Yeah. I love your highlighting. So yeah, the, the line that you're referring to is from the by writings. [00:34:00] It says, let your heart burn with loving and kindness for all who may cross your path.

Right. and I think about that almost every day, right? Where, you know, it's so easy to interact with people not from that place, right? And it's just, you know, we're busy and moving on with our lives and like, but what does it really mean? And what would the world look like if we were to, you know, actually let our hearts burn with loving kindness for all who may cross our path or, and one of the examples that share in the book is in terms of like how people have embedded concepts like this into organizations.

There's a company called Devoted Health, and they've been very successful in the healthcare space and they credit a lot of their success to a. Simple exercise, which is before they engage with any of the patients they interact with, they're encouraged to close their eyes and imagine that the person they're about to interact with is a beloved family member.

you know, it's such a simple exercise, but it's kind of incredible to think and imagine like, what would it look like if in all organizations like that was the [00:35:00] way that we were to engage with people is from this place of, if you are part of my family, you know, how differently am I going to engage with you as a result?

And what is the strength of that love that will, you know, emanate coming from that. And so I think how we can come back to that, it's not always easy to your point. Like it is a, I think a constant. Reminder. And in the same way that we might go to the gym to, you know, work out physically, I think there's a muscle that it can develop around the cultivation of some of these principles.

But, you know, seeing the impact that, that can have both on, you know, our own wellbeing, that the wellbeing of the organizations that we're part of and our, and the broader community, I think is a, huge opportunity. 

Andrea Hiott: Have you found you can create, conversational spaces, and I mean that not just with words, but with bodies and, you know, environments that help people.

so there's less of that tension, I'm thinking for example, of the one example in the book about the coal and the [00:36:00] solar panels, where, because one of the practices that you. tell us about in the book, but I think that you've also asked people to do a lot is for them to bring a symbolic object or something.

I'm wondering, like, maybe you wanna tell about that, about how you can create spaces where we can listen, but we can also recognize that we already have. A shared conversation going maybe, something like that. 

Jenna Nicholas: Yes. No one. A hundred percent. I, so about 10 years ago, I, I co-founded an organization called Impact Experience, and it was really based on a lot of what we are talking about here, or like how disconnected we can become from ourselves and from each other.

And the real motivation was how do we create spaces to build bridges between investors, entrepreneurs, artists. And we've now had about 6,000 people that have gone through these experiences. And we start each of our gatherings, it's typically about 30 people at a time, um, with everybody sharing a symbol, an object that has significance to them.

And this experience that you're, you're referencing was in. Southern West Virginia. It's a community where we've done a lot of [00:37:00] work in over the years. It's a community with incredibly high rates of diabetes, obesity, drug offense rates, many laid off coal miners. And in the group we had a former coal miner come and bring a piece of coal as their object and share about the role of, um, the family and the, uh, values.

And, and in the group we also had somebody who'd spent her life fighting for environmental causes. And she brought a solar panel and, you know, on the surface they couldn't have been more different. Right. A, coal miner and a, a solar panel, solar executive. And yet underneath the. Symbols that they were sharing, the, the values there and what really motivated them and their care and love for their family and for their community were actually much more similar than we would've thought on the, the surface.

And what we found is that through the process of them connecting and being able to see each other beyond those professional roles, but really who they [00:38:00] were as full human beings, that then the collaborations that they were able to have as a result of that were, that much greater than if they had just seen those differences.

And so I think how we create those opportunities in our daily lives for us to truly see one another and to see beyond the, the labels is something that is certainly a big part of the inspiration behind actually my work. But I think something that we can all do in our different irrespective roles. 

Andrea Hiott: So after you've created all these, um, different companies and how do you see money?

I mean, what do you really think of as money? Because I feel like we're s I've st we haven't really dug into that. It still seems like something separate from all this we're talking about, but how do you see money after having worked in it with it and with so many very successful people, investors, companies, being one yourself?

How does, what is it for you? What is money? 

Jenna Nicholas: Yeah. I think a few elements. I think one is like thinking about money and capital, like the different [00:39:00] types of capital. Like, I think so often we think about, capital, we just think about financial capital. But thinking about social capital and human capital and spiritual capital as part of the, the fullness of this picture and the also the money.

And we talk about currency, but there's current embedded within that. I think money has value when it's in motion and the, and I think so often we can get stuck in like more stagnant, uh, environments. I, I think a lot about one of my mentors and is also referenced in, in the book, Lynn Twist wrote a also amazing book called The Soul of Money.

And she talks a lot about this, idea around like, money is a form of medicine and that money and is where it gets its true value is when it is in this circulation and it does have this currency and, and flow and so I think that. So much of it is like what we subscribe to it. And, you know, so often actually in many of these discussion groups that we have, we kind of engage around like, um, our [00:40:00] money stories and, you know, sometimes that can be, you know, pretty traumatic for people and the, it's can be, you know, taboo topic to engage around in, uh, in many contexts.

And so I think how we lower the barriers to entry for being able to have some of these conversations and to explore what role it plays for us and the, it being a, a tool rather than an end in and of itself. 

Andrea Hiott: That word value has such a weight in economics and a really scholarly kind of way of thinking about it.

But of course also in philosophy it has a different way of thinking about it. But I wanna get a little bit messy just for a second because, can we think of money as. The currency, the, the flow towards what we care about. I'll leave that for just a second, but, but I also mean that sometimes we don't know what we've chosen to care about.

We are just in a kind of system that tells us to care about a certain kind of fame or a certain kind of success or a certain kind of product. And we're not really thinking about [00:41:00] it. We're not in these kind of groups like you are, where you're conversationally noticing your care. You know, care is, care is the orientation towards your, what, what you, what your urge is for the desire, right?

Like, maybe I wanna buy a bunch of stuff to make myself look better so other people like me, but I'm not really thinking of it like that. And of course that gets nested into much bigger, you know, things when we, when we think about tech companies or, or whatever. But I just wonder, you know, this is a little messy, but I wonder what you think about that about.

Money has a kind of currency of, of the orientation of our care. But how when we notice it and we notice what we're actually putting our energy into, we shift the current. 

Jenna Nicholas: Definitely. I couldn't agree more. I think there's so much in terms of the process of even realizing how we may be unintentionally oriented towards certain ways of thinking about or engaging with money or how we're thinking about the intersection of care [00:42:00] and money.

and I think part of the opportunity, and there's a framework that I present in the book called the Heal Framework, which stands for Hope, empathy, abundance, and Legacy. And these are based on the interviews that I did for the book. And I think so much of that is. Actually through the process of reflecting on some of these themes around the intersection of value and care and currency and, and money, um, is having some of these tools and questions to be able to navigate the complexity of these intersections, because it is, I don't think these elements are simple, right?

I think these for generations that we've been trying to engage around the nuances here, and I'm not, I don't think we're gonna solve it today, but the, the power of, you know, talks a lot about the power of holding the questions. And I think that's part of the, the hope and goal with this engagement is, you know, less like, how do we get all the answers now, but rather what is the practice of holding those questions [00:43:00] 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah.

And talking about holding them. So hope, empathy, abundance, legacy. We can talk about. Those in different ways, but I wonder, when you were doing all these interviews and these were kind of the themes that you ended up finding, which one felt, did any of them feel surprising that it surfaced so much? Um, or, yeah.

Was, was there anything surprising in this, process of writing the book and having all these interviews which one was harder for you to hold too? I'm also wondering, 

Jenna Nicholas: I think each of them in their own ways, uh, uh, felt like stretch elements and like had their own elements of surprise. So, you know, with e each of them.

So with hope, and I think a lot of what the reflections that kept coming back to, and there's a concept in the by high ratings around the forces of disintegration and integration in the world. You know, and I think so much of what we see on a daily basis are these forces of disintegration, right? It's like with the media and everything that we're seeing is.

All of the terrible things that are going on in the world. And [00:44:00] so this active cultivation of hope or Brene Brown talks about out of microdosing hope, you know, I think is something that, that is a, to this point earlier we talked about, about the muscles that we're, we're building up is how do we continue to reorient around that?

And I do generally like to, so I think myself as a, as a hopeful person, but also realizing that it's something that we can't just take for granted and that we have to, you know, continue to keep front and center and, and I think with. Empathy examples like the, when we talked about earlier with Devoted Health or what does it look like to really imagine people, partners of our family and that that can be complex, right?

And we can sometimes have complex relationships with our family. And so, and you know, so I think with each of them it's like, how do we continue to hold them, at least at what, how it resonated with me as kind of a north star for us to continue to strive towards and then also have grace and care and [00:45:00] love for ourselves in the process of the trying to cultivate some of these ideas.

Andrea Hiott: So nothing was really super surprising. I mean, did you, you felt like most of it kind of fit with what you've already been thinking about when you were writing the book, 

Jenna Nicholas: I think some of the things that surprised me was, um, to this point earlier about joy and play was how people went about.

Trying to cultivate some of these ideas. So within abundance, there's a, um, example that came through in one of the interviews that Scott ler, who runs a company called Seven Mindsets, and it's been a very successful company in the education technology space. And when I was asking him about how does he cultivate a sense of abundance, he shared this example of how he has a wand on his desk.

And when he finds himself in more of a scarce way of thinking, he literally waves the wand and it helps him to, you know, cultivate more of a sense of abundance. So, you know, I've known Scott for many years and we worked on different projects and I had never knew that [00:46:00] before. And so what I really appreciated and consistently kinda surprised me in some of these conversations was being able to see, um, more of the fullness of people.

And there's a line that just kept coming up in so many of the conversations of, you know, I don't really feel like I can talk about this, but, and then people would share these incredible stories. And so I think it was both. Surprising to me and inspiring about how, you know, for many people that they had these, you know, really inspiring and meaningful experiences and motivations and the opportunity to be able to, I think, elevate some of those stories and create more of a space for that is something that, uh, was, was exciting for me.

Andrea Hiott: That's exactly what I was hoping you would talk about, because there are these kind of moments where there's very, this like, wonderful strangeness kind of comes in these moments of vulnerability too. I think where we can, I mean, in the book, but also just in the ideas that you're presenting, because we're talking about, [00:47:00] power and money and then something like the, you know, using the wand to kind of dispel the bad feelings, the self-sabotage or the, the whatever.

it's playful and it can be playful. It it speaks to that contradiction, right, of. If you're doing something spiritual or woo, you know, these kind of words, new age, all these words that we've, we've taken on for good reason, but a lot of people are motivated to try to find those kind of strange ways of getting out of your comfort zone, feeling more optimism believing in the world, right?

The spiritual love. and sometimes it's kind of these strange moments that help us, like get out of our habits. it's a little like what I was asking you about, if changing plays so much helps you because in somewhere you write about going to the Amazon for example.

Mm-hmm. And I imagine you had to get out of your normal habits there. And that's a kind of strangeness, it's not a wand being raised around. Mm-hmm. But to me it's a similar feeling. do you know what I'm saying? 

Jenna Nicholas: Definitely 100% no, and for sure, I mean, certainly going to the, the Amazon was a great example of that.

And I think really [00:48:00] engaging with other ways of being and doing. And actually I had a chance to write a subset piece recently around just one specific, uh, um, event in the Amazon, you know, so this, this trip was organized by, uh, patch and Mama Alliance. So I mentioned Lynn Twist earlier. So she started this organization about 30 years ago, and they've been leading these trips to the.

The Amazon, and it's in collaboration with the Actua and Sahara communities, and they have a practice there as a local community of every morning at 5:00 AM they come together in their local community and they sit in a circle and they share the dreams that they had the night before, and they make decisions on what they're going to do that day.

Based on the dreams that they had the night before. And so we had a chance to participate in, in one of these, um, activities. And it was an incredible experience in many levels. I think one was, to your point about just being exposed to other ways of being and doing is, [00:49:00] you know, when I look at my calendar in typical days, it's, you know, back to back with these meetings.

Like if I, even if I wanted to create space for thinking about what my dreams were and how I might, you know, live my day based on that, like there's no space for it, right? And so I think that this idea that what we can take for granted of, you know, how we live our lives and you know, what success means, and, and even certainly think about the role of money.

I mean, they, they, um, have only this particular community that we were engaged with have only actually had physical currency over the last like 15 years. Right? So the whole way of. Interacting with one another. And, you know, we were there exploring around different investment opportunities. And so even thinking about what does investments look like in a context where there's been such, there's been such a different way of being and, and doing.

So. Um, I couldn't agree more around the importance of being exposed to other environments, [00:50:00] as a inspiration for thinking about things from a different angle. 

Andrea Hiott: I also find some of your faith, I don't know how much you wanna talk about that or, or whatever, but also add a bit of this element of, um, I can't figure out what it, the word is, I'm trying to say.

It's like, kind of thinking strange, but, or kind of waking up, I don't know, these moments of, um, I'm thinking of like a zen cone or something where you kind of 

Jenna Nicholas: mm-hmm. 

Andrea Hiott: there's one quote in the book where you say, or somewhere you say that, gosh, uh, death is a messenger of joy, I think. Mm-hmm. Is that right? 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm mm Yes. Exactly. Yeah. 

Andrea Hiott: those things don't seem to go together at all, is what I'm trying to say. And in a similar way that often we think investing doesn't go with spirituality or a lot of these seeming opposites, which are kind of ways of opening us into different ways of being in this surprise way, waving the wander around.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, um, well, let's think about the death thing that actually is a part of your book, and it seems to be a very important word for a lot of reasons for you. Mm-hmm. I mean, you already shared. That you've lost your mom and your grandmother, [00:51:00] and that seems important, in this book, even if you don't really talk about it.

and also the tombstone, right? With, um, Wayne, he, that's kind of a big thing, right? He, that changed his life when he thought, what should I write on my tombstone? And the idea of legacy, which is the l and Hill. I wanna get into that just a little bit of what all that means for you, also to go back to the very beginning of your par, your mom and your grandmother being appreciative of life.

that's a lot. But I guess just what does that bring up for you in, in the sense of, the way that we can think of our legacy in this bigger way than just our own life? 

Jenna Nicholas: Mm-hmm. I. It's something I, I think about a lot, and I think that, you know, there's, um, another example on this point that I I bring up in the book is that there's a professor in the uk, Peter Vadi, and he has a coffin in his office.

And so before you, uh, get to see him, you see that his coffin and, and his point is, you know, we should really spend each day reflecting on the fact that we're going to die one day. And that, that being an [00:52:00] important thing for us to reflect on. And certainly this passage from the Baha writings of your death as a messenger of joy is something that I reflect on a lot.

And, you know, certainly in the passing of my grandmother and mother, at the beginning it was like, how does this make sense? And, and it has been really o over time that a full, uh, sense of that and what that really means. And I think so much of it is around. you know, an escape from sometimes the limitations of this physical reality and the, you know, how are we embracing the fullness of our spiritual reality in addition to our material reality?

And I think that's in many ways, part of this intersection of, of money and meaning is being able to hold all of these parts of our reality is, is part of the broader contours of our, our life and work. And, and that it gives this [00:53:00] sense of importance to the decisions that we're making. And I think about this a lot.

I, you know, run an investment firm like Post Capital and we're investing into companies that are trying to be at the forefront of innovations in climate and healthcare and other sectors in the, this idea of, and it's also in the, what does it mean to leave a trace? And like what is the trace that you are.

Trying to leave. And I think sometimes we can think about, oh, well, we'll get to that, you know, later on. But we, you know, we don't know how long we have in this world. And I think this idea of, there's a another line in the, by high writings that says, strive that your actions day by day maybe come beautiful prayers.

And, you know, I love that imagery that, our actions and ways that we engage with one another can in of itself be a beautiful prayer or like work as a form of worship and you know, how we're, you know, truly whatever it is that we're doing, doing it with just love and, [00:54:00] and care is, you know, part of a way of us, expressing the fullness of, of who we are.

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. You talk about stewardship sometimes in the book too. That's a word that does recur, which I think relates here. and I think what I'm trying to get at too is we have this sense of self, which can feel very narrow in which we can get very caught up in the ego side of things, I guess you might call it.

Or even like you were saying about your calendar, just staying busy and following the next thing that's gonna ding on the calendar, that feels different than what you're really saying by leaving a trace, because that makes me think of how we're all opening paths for each other all the time.

Actually our life is a path that we're opening for others from others. Mm-hmm. Does that ring true with any of your experiences with your mom and your grandmother, or with your faith, with your business in any way? are you ever able to get out of your own sort of individual definition of self and feel that a bit?

Jenna Nicholas: Totally. I mean, I try to all the time. Um, I don't always succeed, but I think that this, uh, and I think [00:55:00] sometimes where people would refer to that as, um, flow state or, and I also think about in thinking certainly to your first point here around stewardship, think a lot about, and talk about a bit in the book with the indigenous concept around seven generations thinking.

And, you know, how are we thinking about the impact on our decisions now and seven generations to come? And also the legacy that we're inheriting from seven generations in the past and. How does that then impact, you know, how we think about, um, decisions as a result. And so certainly think about that a lot in the investing work that engage in is, you know, what are the repercussions of these decisions, you know, hopefully for, for generations to come.

And what impact, you know, might that create? I think certainly a lot of what my mother and grandmother cultivated within me was a, you know, sense of really trying to see the full picture. And, I think about, there's a, a line from Martin Luther King where he said, um, take the first [00:56:00] step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, but take the first step.

And I think there's something about, you know, how are we just taking each step? And sometimes that can be really challenging, even just taking that, that first step, but the power of what can unfold when we just take each step and, and trusting that things are unfolding as they're meant to. 

Andrea Hiott: I want to hear you, you tell what you want other people to really know about this book, because I wanna say that the message feels very important right now.

You do talk about AI a bit too, and that's part of it, but also just that we can remember that where we're putting our energy, our money, our currency can come from, can be meaningful and can have purpose, and can be about stewardship and can be about love. I really feel that in the stories of the people.

And I wanna make sure we get that message across. So if there's anything that comes up that you wanna share with everyone, or even if you just, you know, there's something you really want them to know, please, feel free to do [00:57:00] that. 

Jenna Nicholas: I love that. And it is, it's something that like, I love that that's what resonated with you.

And that was certainly the intention. And I think one thing is, so in the, the book, at the end of each chapter, I have a series of reflection questions and the really, the hope and intention there is to provide spaces for people to really think about how this shows up in their lives and work. And that, I think, so many of these conversations of how we think about, you know, money and meaning and purpose profits is gonna be different for, for each of us.

And that it being a, I think a lifelong journey of continuing to ask some of these questions and what's resonating and to engage with it To this point we've been talking about from a place of playfulness and joy and exploration, and to often do so in community where it's something that we don't have to be alone in a process of trying to figure all of this out, but how to, um, India enjoy the journey along the way.[00:58:00] 

Andrea Hiott: Yeah, I think that conversational aspect, you really fill in that part because it's, um, there's a lot of intense stories and ideas, and then that gives you a moment to really process it at the end of each chapter. I imagine that's been very helpful in more business situations too, where you're sharing this message, and I guess people can do that in their own teams and businesses.

Um, it makes me think of the resilience, the coherence, the integrity, which I think those are names of the chapters. And, um, yeah. Did you build that in on purpose? That kind of way of it? You, you, you're building resilience, right? Mm-hmm. And you're building coherence and there's an integrity to that. Um, was that on purpose?

It, and has it been good in practice too? Have you? 

Jenna Nicholas: Definitely, very, very much so. And I, and I think that this idea of. How do we be gentle with ourselves in the process? And I think that it's, uh, these are all hard things to do and that it's not, um, we're gonna fall short sometimes. Right. And I think part of that, and to your point about, and I [00:59:00] think it being helpful in the business and investment, um, processes, that, one of the things that really struck me recently was a foundation.

Um, they had like a billion dollar foundation, and they mentioned that before they, uh, made their investment. We went through their investment committee process. They actually read an excerpt from the book. And I was like, what an amazing, um, use of the book. Like, I, it was like so inspiring to hear that the, the part of what I reflect on in the book is the power of pauses and the.

Through creating pauses that we create the spaciousness to be able to tune into a lot of what we are talking about here. And the idea that, you know, maybe reading a, you know, excerpt of the book that can then help to spark some of these conversations within organizations. Or, you know, as people are trying to make difficult decisions that, um, it can then become a, a living laboratory for, uh, for the deepening around some of these themes.

Andrea Hiott: I feel like that's a very important thing, the pause, that you, that you bring in. But also [01:00:00] before we go, I have to bring up this other thing, which I think is very important and something I talk about a lot here, of these seemingly small moments that can actually be enough meaning for a lifetime.

to go back to your grandmother and she was a shop owner in London. basically she, she took the time in a busy day to listen to someone. Who was at a very desperate moment in their life, and it made all the difference. Right. And I think your grandmother kind of told you this of, you know, even if I didn't do anything else in my life that I did, that there's meaning in that.

Right? That's, that's the trace, right? The con, the continuity. And I really think about that all the time, that we try to be these big people doing these big things, but those moments are what really matter. And actually what also feel fulfilling. I mean, there's a reason your grandmother told you that, right?

so maybe you wanna tell that story or even just what that brings, you know, for you relative to these ideas we've been talking about. 

Jenna Nicholas: I love that story and it is one that I come back to a lot and it does seem to be resonating with people. And I, I do think [01:01:00] that it is something of, you know, how do we think about what those elements are on a daily basis and that we never really know.

The impact of, you know, how we're engaging with people and to this early, um, passage of, you know, let your heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path. Like that's really like how my grandmother, I mean, interacted with everyone, but certainly, you know, on that day interacted with this woman and it clearly was given the circumstances and everything that was going on in her life, that was something.

Had such a deep impact in terms of keeping her alive. Right? And it would've been so easy for my grandmother to have just focused on continuing to serve other customers and be in the busyness of life, but actually being able to be in tune enough to be able to see that this woman was struggling and that needed that time and space.

And so I think that this element of like, how do we continue to stay open and [01:02:00] to then, you know, also, yeah, realize that we are enough and that, um, we, yes, there's more that we can do, but not to become so attached to the doing of more that we lose sight of our kind of inherent mobility. 

Andrea Hiott: at some 0.1 of your friends wrote to something similar to you on a card.

Like, just remember you've already done an off or whatever. Like everything else is kind of extra because you've given a lot of meaning to the world. But I think that also holds that tension of how, I mean, your grandmother was working in a busy store and it was not easy for her to take a moment with this person.

So it's not that these things are easy, it's not a complacency. I think you talk about it's not transactional. It, it's more communicative instead of transactional. And how making that choice actually has these very big repercussions for the resilience and the integrity. this elasticity that you talk about in terms of you're sort of building, your power to, to understand what the enough is for you, I guess that's oriented your life a lot, that story. But, last thing before we go is if there's anything you wanna share relative to an experience of love or [01:03:00] care, that helps you write this book or that, you know, just comes today, in connection to any of these themes we've been talking about, 

Jenna Nicholas: that is definitely one that I, I come back to a lot with my, my grandmother, but I think that maybe kind of more broadly is, and I mentioned, you know, that they've both passed on, but I, I dedicated the book to my mother and grandmother and I could, like, feel them guiding me throughout the, the process as I was writing and pulling the pieces together.

And I think another aspect also is, you know, part of the inspiration for me in writing the book was that there's, you know, so many people that have so many incredible stories. And I was thinking that, you know, many of these people are getting on in their, in life and like, will these stories be told before they pass on?

And actually, uh. A few of the people that I've interviewed for the book have since passed on. And I think about the idea that like, so many ways that my, my hope with the book and hopefully is playing out is that of honoring the legacy of those [01:04:00] people and their stories. And a couple to mentions, you know, Bob Chapman who just passed away just a few weeks ago.

And, um, incredible leader and Lisa Hall, um, passed away last year. And, um, you know, also just an amazing leader in this area of social responsible investing. And I can feel, you know, their love like both in, you know, my relationship to them, but like love for the world and love for the advancement of these ideas that I think has it certainly been a catalyst for the, the writing and also for, for much of the work I engage in.

Andrea Hiott: Yeah. And that's the other word that actually I think is surprising me right now, but comes the most powerful is this conversational, this conversation because the pause is important and all the message is very important of, of what you're giving in in the book. But also just that conversational thing that we started with of, you know, and that you started with when you're 14, of having these conversations and also taking them seriously, documenting them.

It's a real sign of respect, I think. And a lot of [01:05:00] your conversations, did you record them? Uh, is there, yeah, yeah. So people can find those or, 

Jenna Nicholas: yeah, so I've, I've, um, released many of them in podcast form and so yeah, so I have a podcast and I have a substack and, uh, so, which is very much like trying to engage around some of the broader.

Conversations, I could only obviously have like just a small tidbits from it, uh, in the book itself. Um, but really try to, uh, hold the fullness of some of these stories through some of these other platforms. 

Andrea Hiott: Well, we'll be sure to link to all of it. Is there anything else that you wanna make sure we say before we go or any, anything I didn't say that you wanna talk about?

Jenna Nicholas: No, just thank you so much for this opportunity and thank you so much for all that you're, you're bringing into the world. I think this is, uh, these are such important conversations, so I really appreciate it. 

Andrea Hiott: Thank you too. It means a lot what you're doing and I, want a lot people to know more about it, think more about it.

So thanks for coming on today I wish you all the best. Have a great day. You 

Jenna Nicholas: too.

Hey everyone, hope you enjoyed that. I said I'd read this poem, which I have found the part of Four [01:06:00] Quartets called Dry Salvages. And Four Quartets is by T.S. Eliot. Here is the passage in context, but remember this is a much longer, fuller poem, so go check it out. But here's the part I was thinking about.

It seems as one becomes older that the past has another pattern and ceases to be, and ceases to be a mere sequence or even development. The latter a partial fallacy encouraged by superficial notions of evolution, which becomes in the popular mind a means of disowning the past. The moments of happiness, not the sense of well-being, fruition, fulfillment, security, or affection, or even a very good dinner, but the sudden illumination.

We had the experience but missed the meaning. An approach to the meaning restores the experience in a different form beyond any meaning we can assign to happiness. I have said before that the past [01:07:00] experience revived in the meaning is not the experience of one life only, but of many generations not forgetting something that is probably quite ineffable.

Okay, I sort of destroyed, I didn't read that very well , sorry. Um, but you know, in the spirit of being unscripted, I won't re-record. But I think he's, Eliot, sort of pushing back against this idea that the past is just some sequence and we move beyond it or a development. Actually, it's still part of us, or at least that's how I'm thinking of it.

We, we are memory. We're carrying it with us. It's changing. It's becoming. And the meaning comes back to us later, and it's restored as experience in a different form. And this is constantly going. So even now and later, before, past, present, these are all actually sort of right now in our bodies. And we don't want to lament the lost time so much as make the shift right now.

Recovery through return, I guess, [01:08:00] is sort of what I'm thinking of and what I'm imagining is how we might shift what we think of as money towards currency and care, which is a kind of a weird stretch with this poem. But just this idea that the experience and the meaning can be together.